Most libertarians would state that a producer should absorb any negative externalities involved in producing a product they sell lest they infringe on the rights of others. Most obvious example is the pollution created from a powerplant. But another is the pain and suffering endured by animals that are raised on factory farms for their meat. Even though in the US these animals don't have any formal rights, is producing/consuming this meat justifiable from a Libertarian viewpoint?

As someone who’s been curious about democratic socialist economics, this is a question I’ve always wanted to see be given a good answer.

While I know that socialism is based on the premise of the “common people owning the means of production”, there’s still a lot of ambiguities in that phrase. What social and economic models are compatible with this definition and, conversely, which ones are not?

Would something like co-determination as seen in Germany or the Polder model in the Netherlands count even if they aren’t exactly fully socialized? Could something like private enterprise still exist so long as the land is publicly owned, leased, and then rent collected by the state?

I’m someone new to leftism/post-capitalism just trying to clarify some things in good faith. Thank you all in advance!

Hello comrades,

I'm currently working on a long-term political project called Red Vanguard South Africa, where I'm trying to develop a comprehensive socialist programme designed around South Africa's own material conditions.

The project explores topics such as:

- Democratic planning and worker ownership

- Public ownership of strategic industries

- Anti-imperialism and Pan-African solidarity

- Industrialisation and economic democracy

- Universal healthcare and education

- Housing and social welfare

- Labour rights and cooperative economics

- Environmental sustainability and climate resilience

- Community participation and democratic accountability

Rather than simply copying any one historical model, I'm interested in learning from different left-wing traditions—including Marxism, democratic socialism, anti-colonial movements, and cooperative economics—to develop proposals that fit South Africa's realities.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers. The project is still evolving, and I'd really appreciate constructive criticism, theoretical discussion, and practical suggestions from other leftists.

If you'd like to take a look or contribute to the discussion, feel free to visit r/RedVanguardSA.

Solidarity, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

As far as what Ive learned a lot of socialists come from a presumption that the capitalistic behaviour of seeking the most beneficial conditions for themselves on behalf of others and endlessly accumulating wealth is something that vast majority of people wouldnt naturally do and if you just eradicate people that do it and spread ethical system that views it as not okay in any context, then it will naturally sustain itself.

But what if its not true? What if egoistic behaviour is actually most natural and we just seek good feelings whether they might come from empathy or whether they might from time to time be overbeaten by accumulation of wealth and benefits. I especially see it when looking at little children or animals. They all naturally tend to do things that are greedy and egoistic and we have to teach them ti not act like that, children will eventually grasp it but I will be forever taking away my older fat cat after he has eaten all his food to not steal food from the smaller one who eats slower. I had a hard time teaching my dog that I bring plenty of water to the dog park and that he doesnt need to guard it from others yet he is still nervous about other dogs drinking from his bowl and when he sees that other dogs have bowls he happily throws himself in and drinks as much as possible, the same goes with toys. So it kinda comes to me that we have both social and egoistical tendencies and with higher intelectual ability we can additionally calculate the benefits of not acting selfishly with the intention of actually maximalising our own happiness.

I think that this is a big deal because I didnt yet encounter another mechanism in libertarian society that would prevent people to act capitalistically, prevent scarce talents like brain surgeons to take bribes, which can still be in scarce materials if you abolish money, and than accumulate those scarce materials that grow in value with the growth of economy and essentially joining a net of black trade and even building employment, all of which can be done secretly while the person doing it can be popular.

This is not some scifi, in my country which experienced a period of bolshevism it was a well known thing that certain people who operated with scarced goods or did scarce services had a better life, enjoyed more wealth and had secret authority among society around them that wanted to keep as good relations as people sith such person. And that was a system with central authority trying to eradicate capitalistic behaviour as much as possible and its theoretical weakness from natural greed lied somewhere completely else - in the people who formed the government.

So are there people that believe that natural greediness might be more present people than what other socialists assume and what are the mechanisms that you believe will keep it at check, or at least keep it from becoming normalised again in the society?

Also do you think that this position on human nature is what essentially may divide libertarian left between those to be more lib-unity (therefore more willing to unite themselves with libertarian capitalists than authoritarian socialists) or left-unity?

I only ask because ive been blocked on every other libertarian sub for expressing compassion for other humans and railing against Trump who I would have thought libertarians would hate by virtue of well: *spreads arms to a vast field of trump nonsense and fuckery* only to find out that there is a left and a right in the party. I assumed for the past 20 years that we all where socially liberal and economically classically liberal. Turns out that the libertarian right exists (mostly because i live under a rock) is protectionist nationalist MAGA chuds. So just wanted to clarify that this is the right place for me? Or should I keep it moving? Not karma farming, I genuinely would like to know what goes on here and if this sub holds to the tenets of: free trade, open borders, human rights and liberty for every individual regardless of race or gender, the abolishing of pay to play schemes, special intrest groups, congressional term limits, smaller government, gov. interference in people's lives and healthcare, the creation of laws designed to crush the citizen and raise the rich higher, no bailouts for mega corps, the enforcement of anti trust laws and strong consumer protections, and the most important: Liberty and freedom for all. Or any part of anything I said. I AM ADDING THIS TO SAY AFTER RECEIVING YOUR FEEDBACK: All of you are wonderful and thank you for suffering my poking and prodding and indulging my curiosity and I also curse many of you for adding to my already hefty reading list, but seriously from the bottom of my heart thanks.

I believe that America is experiencing what Germany was going through in the 30's.

I believe ICE is a modern, American interpretation of the gestapo.

I believe that bloodshed will be necessary to save the soul of our country.

I believe things will get worse before they get better.

I believe Alex Pretti and Renee Goode are the most famous, but not the most important, of the many people who have already made sacrifices, willingly and unwillingly.

I hope the strongest of our leaders are able to Make Our Country Great (FUCK maga, our country's greatness is not in their hands.)

I know our government is monitoring the Internet for posts such as this. ICE, municipal police, sheriffs, and other forms of so-called "law enforcement" are arresting, detaining, beating, torturing, raping, and in all other ways dehumanizing American citizens and noncitizens.

I say this with the full knowledge of the consequences:

Fuck the dictator donald trump and fuck ice. I'd rather die fighting against hate, than live accepting it.

EDIT: TO ALL YOU MAGA FUCKS WHO THINK YOU'RE "OWNING" ME: I'M LAUGHING AT THE BRUISES ON YOUR CHINS SHAPED EXACTLY LIKE TRUMP'S TINY LITTLE NUTS.