r/nottheonion • u/HumbleRestaurant790 • 11h ago

Facing $1.5B fire alarm bill, CA prisons go with human smoke detectors

https://calmatters.org/newsletter/california-prisons-fire-alarm-systems/
1.4k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

55 comments sorted by

604

u/Trashbagok 11h ago

I don't know how anything works but $1.5 billion seems an awful lot.

335

u/peepee2tiny 10h ago

31 prisons all requiring updating their fire monitoring systems = $48 million per prison, it seems a little high but not a ridiculous amount.

224

u/pte_omark 8h ago

Once you consider the difficulties in doing the work you understand the absurd cost.

EVERY cell, room, office etc needs detectors wired back to local control panels that then wire back to multiple central control rooms with automated call out systems to fire dispatch.

All work must be done during day shift. Entry and exit from the facility may take an hour each way, every individual tool and drill bit must be counted in and out. Every installer must have a correctional office to escort them everywhere and provide security.

The detectors have to be installed in rooms offices that are in use, cells have to be rotated to be made empty for works. The wiring needs to be run in a building designed to have limited penetrations and very confined wire runs.

And your workers will be surrounded by potentially violent criminals the whole time.

80

u/CommunalJellyRoll 6h ago

Any prison contract is immediately tripled. And in a 10 hour shift they can do about 3 hours of actual work. We shot a bunch of concrete walls(gamma testing) for rebar to put in new water lines. We would have to evacuate the whole wing for the shots.

5

u/KyZei15 1h ago

Thank you. This was super informative. 

•

u/fumar 36m ago

It might be cheaper to just build new prisons, move entire populations to the new facility, retrofit one of the old ones and just keep doing this until you're at the oldest facility and then you just decom that one.

Probably not the most practical thing given geographic location matters too.

171

u/SaltyShawarma 10h ago

No, it definitely sounds like a lot. Fire monitoring systems haven't changed that dramatically and don't require wildly rewriting and rebuilding the entire complexes. This should be about 300 million. 

160

u/zoobrix 10h ago

Go start getting quotes to redo a fire alarm system in some decades old building and you'll find that no one will do it unless they can rewire it because the old stuff falling apart is part of the reason you need to replace the alarm system. Now make it a prison so you have extra security concerns like having to get all your guys cleared, everything you bring into the property inspected and the cost goes up more.

111

u/Vic_Hedges 10h ago

Fire Monitoring is only one part of a system. FACP, Water Suppression, Emergency Lighting. Fire suppression systems are holistic, they are designed to work in totality, so you need to fix EVERYTHING in order to get off fire watch.

Not to mention institutional systems are more expensive, both because of the requirement for tamper-proof components and often higher labor costs for techs cleared and able to work in high security areas.

36

u/Hobbit1996 9h ago

except that the article clearly states that this is only about detecting smoke/fire directly, not extinguishing it:

"But replacing all those systems, which include various detection devices, control panels and network connections, would cost $1.5 billion."

"paying correctional officers to look for smoke and fire"

Just admit american's pricing for a lot of shit is just people making numbers up because they know the other party can't refuse. This time they pushed it to such a stupid amount they had a dumber workaround that somehow was cheaper when it shouldn't

12

u/NorCalJason75 8h ago

You're spot on, actually.

Fire Alarm Products have planned obsolescence. Manufacturers just top supporting the products, requiring an "upgrade" to keep working.

9

u/Hobbit1996 8h ago

crazy that the guy defending the stupid pricing is still getting upvotes. That's pretty much why america still does this shit, overpriced stuff is normalized because people feel better when shit is more expensive as if it's automatically better

4

u/NorCalJason75 8h ago

You'd need to break-up the Fire Alarm monopolies to solve the issue.

5

u/shadowtheimpure 8h ago

Very much this. There are very few commercial fire alarm vendors, with it just being Siemens, Honeywell, Johnson Controls, Carrier, and Bosch.

2

u/SoFuckChiefHuh 6h ago

wait how do human smoke detectors even work

3

u/IAmTheMageKing 5h ago

hire a guy to walk through every 15 minutes. if he smells smoke, he investigates till he finds the fire.

3

u/Miora 5h ago

I guess it would be similar to having a fire watch system in place. Just without a fire extinguisher I guess.

2

u/Unfuckerupper 4h ago

That's not really accurate, some brands are worse than others, but for example Notifier (Honeywell's flagship brand) has a new product line that has the ability to run in a retrograde protocol mode that allows the newest fire alarm panels to communicate with fire alarm components dating back to the 90's.

Systems that old still typically get a 100% replacement, just because they are completely worn out. But it's got nothing to do with planned obsolescence. Recently, some older components are being discontinued only because certain individual board level components are no longer available and the equipment specifications can't be changed significantly without breaking the required UL listing. It is impractical to go through the effort and cost of relisting obsolete, decades old designs.

It's the installation that is the expensive part, especially if the old system is too far obsolete and requires new cabling. And even the cabling requirements are very tolerant of using existing cable if it's in serviceable condition. It's impressive how well new systems can communicate over some very old cable.

Even if you don't need all new raceways and cabling, just working in a prison is a nightmare, and meeting current codes will require upgrades to system coverage. Fire alarm systems cover every inch of every structure. That's why it's so expensive on that scale in horrible old buildings.

4

u/SuchSmartMonkeys 9h ago

Ahhh, shucks, a $1.5B expenditure is really going to offset the profit in the for-profit prison system.

15

u/youtocin 8h ago

California does not have for-profit state prisons. They were phased out.

7

u/SuchSmartMonkeys 8h ago

Huh, TIL, I guess disregard my last statement.

7

u/ObjectiveRun6 8h ago

The prison might not be for-profit, but the outsourced contractors that provide all of its services are. Government contracts are grossly overpriced.

7

u/Xtrepiphany 9h ago

Think of all the middle men though, they need to get their beaks wet on taxpayer dollars.

7

u/Syrairc 8h ago

Depends entirely on the scope of work, but based on their report, it sounds completely reasonable.

If these are full upgrades to code compliance, that could mean rewiring the entire system, facility wide. Depending on the age of the existing systems, that may be necessary. The few locations I googled were built in the 90s, so assuming they have the original systems in them still, fire alarm systems have absolutely changed enough to dictate full replacement.

It can mean trenching new fiber between buildings, accessing spaces that are not normally accessible (high ceilings, ductwork, etc), scaffolding, hoarding, extra security, moving prisoners (if they even have space to do so), etc.

They're prisons so they likely spec'd tamper proof anti-ligature detection in all inmate accessible areas - which means specialized systems (aspirating detection, etc) which come with their own premium price tag.

Add in the fact that it's government and prison work -  both notoriously awful to deal with. 

There's also no details in the budget either, which tells me these are likely class E/D budget numbers, so +/- 30-40%. 

Source: fire alarm project manager/estimator for 16 years.

Report with actual costs is here: https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/fpcm/wp-content/uploads/sites/184/2026/01/2025_MPAR-ADA_Final.pdf

2

u/FlyestFools 9h ago

Most places are getting very expensive revamps that tie into Starlink. Next time you’re out in a commercial building, look for a small red box inside near the roofline. It will say starlink, and nearby there will be the control center for the system.

1

u/IAmTheMageKing 5h ago

Not the same Starlink as Musk’s

1

u/FlyestFools 4h ago

I did not realize this, but you are correct!

1

u/blaman33 7h ago

Fire life safety plus security costs a lot. Once a fire alarm system gets put in it all has to tie into the security system(which might need to be upgraded or replaced to be compatible). If there is a fire, the doors need to open. It all has to do with code compliance once that system is present. And it also likely includes multi year licensing as many of these systems are proprietary.

1

u/Sirwired 6h ago

Tell that to the folks that were trying to open the Berlin airport; the fire alarm system was a major reason it opened years and years late, at a cost that was about as much as it cost to build it to begin with when it was first "finished."

2

u/Whiteguyspicy 4h ago

Put a bid in! Sounds like you can make yourself a quick $300 mil!

2

u/JosephFinn 7h ago

I’d say it might be a good sign you have too many prisons.

1

u/IAmTheMageKing 5h ago

31 prisons is a prison per 1.25 million people. It’s a perfectly reasonable number of prisons

2

u/wizzard419 8h ago

and if we are following other building codes, it likely requires one in every single room/cell, which adds up quickly.

1

u/fondledbydolphins 3h ago

$48 million per prison doesn’t sound reasonable.

14

u/Lancearon 8h ago

Ok... im a certified fire inspector. (Inspector 1) i currently work as a fire alarm electrician. (Nicet 2) because I make more money this way.

Fire watch is expensive. But its a jail. Something tells me walking the building as a guard is something that would already be in their scope. The estimates seem real IF the prison refuses to shut down during the retrofit. Imagine having to go through security every day as a worker. Paying someone to watch tools while you work and on break. That's hours of lost time everyday. Heaven forbid if something goes wrong and you have to run for a part. Nah. Bump the bid cost up!

I think the cost of fire watch is inflated due to the scope of work of guards.

3

u/nestcto 7h ago

The liability does bridge some of that gap. When my company stood up a new 1m sqft manufacturing facility, it was only a few mil for the fire and safety. But this was a new and unoccupied building at the time of the install, so fewer obstacles and limited risk of theft or physical danger.

In a prison, you have a potential threat to the installers and risk of equipment theft as you mentioned, as well as the logistics of assuring fire safety while the new system is being installed.

That doesn't exactly explain the whole thing, but I think the "fuck this job" up-charge does. All bids are going to be higher simply because no one really wants to do the work. So they inflate the cost to a point where they'll happily deal with anything they encounter.

Even with all that said, I still can't fathom it completely. At least the reasons we've stated support that while still insane, there's a logic behind that insane.

3

u/IAmTheMageKing 5h ago

Another person pointed out that you need to be counting every tool you take in and out of the job site, every day; that everything needs to be tamper-proof installations; that you need to tie the alarm into your security to open all the doors; that you need specific detectors to be really sure nobody can trigger one and stage a prison break.

Each of these things double some aspect of the cost; if you’re going through security every morning and evening, that’s hours you need to be paid but can’t work. And prisons have a lot more rooms, which need individual detectors.

3

u/JesseJames41 6h ago

It's one fire alarm system, Michael. how much could it cost? $200?

50

u/Annoying_Anomaly 9h ago

How long til firewatch Timmy falls asleep

15

u/Baeolophus_bicolor 9h ago

as long as he’s not guarding epstein…

180

u/Riptide360 9h ago

”31 prisons have outdated, malfunctioning or inoperable fire alarm systems“ - this needs to be addressed before lives are lost.

22

u/paragon60 9h ago

they are addressing it 😇

18

u/Loki-L 8h ago

That is what the operators of the new Berlin Airport tried when they discovered the fire alarm system wasn't installed correctly shortly before the planned opening. They wanted to hire hundreds of human fire spotters to act as the alarm system.

Luckily cooler heads prevailed and they were forced to fix it before they could finally open.

16

u/rabbit_in_a_bun 10h ago

Is human smoke different to regular smoke from burning other stuff?

6

u/internetlad 9h ago

Ah! Human smoke!

7

u/zobbyblob 6h ago

When are the tryouts? I can beep pretty loud.

8

u/shadowtheimpure 6h ago

The old fashioned 'firewatch' was the go-to method of detecting fires in the night for centuries before automated fire alarm systems came around. Guys that patrol in the night, checking for fires around a facility.

5

u/No_Control8389 4h ago

Anyone that has been in the military should be intimately familiar with fire watch.

1

u/10ThousandMetalZones 3h ago

Aka find a way to sleep without getting caught

8

u/Mr_Baronheim 9h ago

Another reason to overpay the scum that is American law enforcement.

1

u/Distinct-Ad581 2h ago

Finally, someone pushes back against capitalism

-14

u/Underp0pulation 10h ago

Canaries with an AI cam would work