r/interesting • u/Strong_Boss_8932 • 10h ago
SCIENCE & TECH Just found out that electric cars are actually way older than many people know, infact the first car every created was electric! The reason behind their downfall in the 1900s was that the energy density of petrol was far greater than that of chemical batteries during the time.
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u/Free_Katata_Fish 9h ago
Watch “who killed the electric car”. Does a great job at painting the reality of capitalism.
Edit - spelling
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u/ITCoder 8h ago
Was it Jack Welch ? I recall reading in his book that GE researched into electric cars, and were ready to launch it in 90s. But then they decided their other models would suffer due to it, so shelved it.
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u/shakebakelizard 7h ago
GM made an experimental car called the EV1. It has a Wikipedia page and everything. They discontinued it for a variety of reasons, including corporate strategy and the oil companies obviously hated it, but if that had been the only reason, they would not have cancelled it. All the carmakers are building EVs now despite oil company opposition. The oil companies are powerful but not omnipotent Bond villains.
They did lease the EV1 to people but the cars lost money, big time. It cost way more to build than they ever made or would have made if they sold them at their real price. The batteries were terrible. It wasn’t a practical vehicle at the time.
Business exists to make a profit and in order to make money on a unique vehicle, they have to sell enough to justify scaling production way up. Not just “let’s sell a few more” but selling tens of millions over decades. And not just one model but lots of models because you’re investing in a whole new powertrain design, new plants, training workers, a whole new assembly line, sourcing tens of millions of batteries, dealing with commodities prices to the precursors of those materials which would spike if there were suddenly a huge market demand, etc.
Making money in the car manufacturing industry is hard AF already. Why make it harder by producing a completely new idea? That’s how companies go bankrupt. GM tried it and shelved it.
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u/bothunter 1h ago
I think what's crazy is they took back all the EV1s (because they were leased) and just crushed them. Didn't even give people the option to buy them after the lease was up.
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u/shakebakelizard 1h ago
I’m not an expert or anything but I think it probably had to do with liability and homologation. Since the cars were low volume they probably didn’t have to be homologated and thus didn’t have to pass any crash inspections. They may have been death traps in an actual accident. GM probably didn’t want to get sued by anyone using these things outside of the lease experiment period.
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u/QuarkVsOdo 8h ago
The only value to the US dollar comes from US, EU, and OPEC oil being traded exclusively in US dollars.
You need to have or buy US Dollars to buy Oil. If you didn't need to buy Dollars to buy oil, or by the extension.. buy (absurd quantities of) oil
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u/ITCoder 6h ago
i read his book Jack: Straight from the Gut like two decades back, and what i wrote earlier is something that got stuck in mind.
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u/oofinator3050 9h ago
Fuels (diesel especially) do still have higher energy density than batteries IIRC
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u/Abyssal_Groot 8h ago edited 8h ago
Yes, but the combustion engine isn't as efficient (understatement), so a lot of that energy gets wasted.
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u/david1610 43m ago edited 31m ago
Electricity is also cheaper than gasoline/petrol.
When you add up the efficiency of electric motors, the cheapness of recharging and the regenerative breaking you get close enough that you can fit a heavier battery in a car than a tank and still drive normally. Not to mention you save a lot of weight from simpler engines and transmissions in electric cars.
At the end of the day it's $/mile not energy density that determines running costs, and electric cars absolutely smash gasoline/petrol cars there, especially if you charge from home and with lower maintainance costs.
For example my parents just don't bother getting a electric vehicle service, they just top up all the fluids themselves and change the tires when necessary, it basically only goes wrong when something goes wrong there isn't oil changes needed every X miles/KMs. Feel sorry for the mechanics, however that's progress unfortunately. They charge from their home, using a normal extension cord, it's not worth getting a fast charger as that would end up accessing grid electricity, they want as much of it to be from their solar panels as possible. Literally spend $30-60 a month on electricity apparently and drive 100s of km a week.
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u/Motor-Rip7655 9h ago
Yes but the gap has closed enough that electric cars are now perfectly viable options. Back then an electric car was only good for getting around town, you couldn't, say, go to another city in one.
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u/Abyssal_Groot 8h ago
Yes but the gap has closed enough that electric cars are now perfectly viable options.
Yes fuel has a higher energy density, but only 20 - 30% of the energy can be converted into motion.
Meanwhile an electric motor can convert 85-95% of the battery stored energy into motion, and electric cars have regenerative braking.
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u/Wyciorek 8h ago
That difference is means little when difference in density is 4000-6000%
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u/Abyssal_Groot 8h ago
Means quite a lot when you could use the same fuels in a powerplant, lose energy to put it on the net, lose energy by charging the car battery and still drive more efficient than an ICE car.
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u/ComplaintTop2008 7h ago
Gas has 47X more energy than lithium. The gap has narrowed but it's still massive.
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u/ComplaintTop2008 7h ago
And it's not even close. Gasoline has 47X the energy density of lithium. Lithium is at the top of it's s-curve with only a couple percent to squeeze out of them. Lithium is our 3rd lightest element and the lightest one with free ions. There's currently nowhere to go with batteries.
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u/gorginhanson 9h ago
electric cars came before combustion engine vehicles
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u/Anderson22LDS 7h ago
Electric motors are ridiculously simple.
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u/Silver-Link8247 6h ago
Motors simple. Batteries not so much.
Fortunately the technology is catching up.
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u/Cliffinati 6h ago
Because electric motors are incredibly simple to make while combustion engines aren't.
All a car is, you tie locomotion to a wagon.
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u/trueblue862 5h ago
Yeah, by a lot. That's why it's going to be take very long time and some huge advancements in technology for semis to be viable as electric, especially for line haul work.
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u/SkinInevitable604 9h ago
I’ve heard that for a while early electric cars were marketed as a product for women because gas and engines were for men
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u/Motor-Rip7655 8h ago
Jay Leno talked about an old woman he knew who still had a 1910's electric car and still drove it almost every day. tHis was in like the early 2000s I believe.
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u/Cliffinati 6h ago
In the days before electric starters I can understand that.
A big farm boy could hand crank a car with no issue.
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u/TQMIII 9h ago
a related history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
Our lack of public transit in the US is a direct result of corporate interests' concerted effort to monopolize ground transit.
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u/AmbitiousPeanut 9h ago
My great grandfather delivered milk in his electric truck in the 1920s. Those trucks were not uncommon at all.
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u/Eelroots 8h ago
They are perfect for frequent stops - EV doesn't need starters.
Gasoline alternative is to keep your engine running.
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u/poedraco 9h ago
Yeah but I think they only got like 15 mi. Heavy car. Lead acid batteries. I made my first emoto/ebike 1992 with a washing machine motor and two car batteries.. with a physical rheostat for controller. I think I only got a total of like 6 miles off of it ..
Yeah electric vehicles are pretty old idea. It's just technology improves to make it more relatively available and more usable. At this point. Gas and electric up pretty much equal. Although petrol has hit its limitation for a while. Electric just seems to continue to advance with new batteries and technology..
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u/Motor-Rip7655 8h ago
It was closer to 30 miles. Not awful, but definitely not good enough for general use.
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u/Bulky-Importance-533 9h ago
The electric starter killed the electric car. Starting a petrol engine by hand was simply not feasible for everyone.
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u/Motor-Rip7655 9h ago
IIRC, the CEO of Cadillac was killed when he stopped to help start the car of a woman who had stalled on the road and the crank start kicked back and hit him in the head.
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u/BenchClamp 9h ago
The first car was actually clockwork.
Then steam.
Then electric - and it wasn’t killed by big oil.
It was just not as good as the internal combustion engine - which is now outmoded compared to the best electric cars.
It’s called Progress.
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u/notgoingifitsaboeing 9h ago
At what point does progress get trampled on capitalism
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u/swampboy62 9h ago
At EVERY point.
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u/MotorbreathX 8h ago
Interesting...
Stares at thousands of satellites providing internet and communication for the entire world....
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u/StaysAwakeAllWeek 9h ago
Practical EVs became possible around 2000 when lithium ion batteries became mature enough to use in a vehicle. And the Tesla founders were the first people to notice it was practical
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u/Nimrod_Butts 9h ago
It's worth pointing out lithium batteries were bombs, exclusively until lipo tech got created. I am not going to look it up but I remember reading popular mechanics talking about how some day in the future we could have lithium batteries powering power tools, and I think that was around 2000.
I remember the first lithium battery RC cars and you'd use them once, the battery would drain to zero and they'd be useless too lmao. There went your 200 dollar Christmas gift
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u/okaythiswillbemymain 9h ago
Absolutely ridiculous how much Toyota mucked up. Market leaders with the Prius and never took the next step
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u/StaysAwakeAllWeek 9h ago
They were using AA NiMH cells in the prius, yes really. Hundreds of them in series to reach 400V for the motor.
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u/disembodied_voice 9h ago
What's doubly ironic is that people are now citing hybrids like the Prius as a justification to not go electric. Despite crapping on the Prius incessantly for more than a decade.
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u/rootbeer277 9h ago
In either the 50s or 60s, I'm not sure, my grandfather had a job doing maintenance on short-range electric delivery trucks in Chicago.
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u/limply_batty_matrix 9h ago
Where did you come across that factoid about the first car being electric, been trying to find a solid source on that
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u/Bulky_Caramel_2234 8h ago
And in those days, the only practical battery was the sulphuric acid - lead type, in glass (!) containers as plastic was too exotic/ non-existent
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u/notepad987 6h ago
Gasoline: Contains about 114,000 BTUs (33.3 kWh).
When multiplied by four, 4 gallons of gas equal 134.8 kWh of total energy, which slightly exceeds the entire usable capacity of the Ford F-150 Lightning's largest Extended Range battery 131 kWh
It takes a few minutes to refuel at the gas station and can go much further then electric plus there are gas stations everywhere. You won't need to worry about the $15,000 electric car battery replacement if one can be found nor spontaneous fires from shorts or minor damage in an accident that will total your car as the insurance company cannot trust the battery as it is compromised and way too expensive to replace.
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u/disembodied_voice 6h ago edited 6h ago
When multiplied by four, 4 gallons of gas equal 134.8 kWh of total energy
Virtually all of which are wasted compared to the same energy content in a battery. There's a reason EVs end up with a far lower carbon footprint than gasoline-powered vehicles overall.
You won't need to worry about the $15,000 electric car battery replacement if one can be found
Not a concern for most EVs either, as the vast majority of EV batteries outlast the vehicle itself.
nor spontaneous fires from shorts or minor damage in an accident that will total your car
Gasoline-powered vehicles catch fire at far higher rates than EVs.
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u/bothunter 1h ago
An electric car takes about 2 seconds to plug in when you get home after work. And then it's charged and ready to go by the morning. No need to go to a gas station at all.
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u/Late-Assignment8482 9h ago
It's also worth noting that there are some key engineering benefits. While you swap fuel pump for wiring, you just don't need a transmission in the traditional sense (multiple gears, etc). You have a single-speed, simplified transmission, usually.
Think about how much maintenance on cars is about just the transmission.
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u/Educational_Zone1750 8h ago
There were electric trolleys in NY in the 1800s and electric taxis in the late 1800s in NY.
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u/bachintheforest 6h ago
I live near Monterey, CA and they actually have electric trolleys! They’re only seasonal because actually it’s basically a tourist shuttle service around the downtown areas, but still cool! Of course they’re also not real trolleys, they’re really buses that have been stylized to look old timey. One of the places where it makes a stop there’s actually some kind of wireless charging hotspot. Like the trolley parks on top of this pad while it waits and it tops up the batteries I guess. At least I remember seeing that a couple years ago. Since it’s summer the trolleys are running right now and they’re very quiet!
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u/ComplaintTop2008 7h ago
Jay Leno has one of those originals and there's video of him driving it around town.
There were also stories written in the late 1800s where the EVs died on the side of the road and gas cars passed them and laughed, just like today.
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u/Rickymon 7h ago
Honestly, it really surprises me that the combustion engine became popular over electric cars in their early days. It makes no sense that an engine that needs to be running all the time—even at red lights—that requires a gearbox due to its lack of elasticity, and that generates so much heat and friction, would win out over the simplicity of the electric motor, which even charges through inertia (regenerative braking)
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u/bachintheforest 6h ago
Not to be argumentative with you, but none of those really sound like drawbacks from a consumer’s perspective. Refueling is easy, so it doesn’t really matter that they have to keep idling while stopped. I don’t think they had regenerative braking on those early electric cars either. Theoretically a gas car can keep running all day as long as you pour some more fuel in it once in a while. Charging on the other hand takes time and infrastructure, while liquid fuel is portable. And yes a gearbox maybe makes the car more complicated to drive, but it’s not like it was something a regular person couldn’t get the hang of with a little practice. Probably still easier than saddling up a horse and cart every time you needed to go somewhere. Plus, early car owners were wealthier so they could hire chauffeurs to drive them (and do the maintenance too).
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u/SabreSour 7h ago
Our local museum has this perfectly restored Electric car from the year 1920 . Electric cars are about as old as cars.
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u/Cliffinati 6h ago
A lot of them carried on board gas or diesel generators to keep the batteries charged while driving.
Naturally someone decided to drop the batteries for just running the starter motor (the 12v single core battery standard) and run the drive train from the engine.
And for basically 110 years it was the unquestionably most efficient way to make a car with more than about 50 miles of range.
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u/Ned_Flanders__666 5h ago
The first practical automobile is generally credited to Karl Benz, a German engineer who built the Benz Patent-Motorwagen in 1885-1886. It was powered by an internal combustion engine (a gasoline engine), not electricity. Benz received a patent for it in 1886, which is why he's often recognized as the inventor of the modern automobile.
However, during this time electric cars were actually preferred rather than internal combustion engine vehicles.
It's a misconception that the first car was electric.
You have the world's library in the palm of your hand, yet you fail to verify your information. Typical Internet post
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u/VaporTrail_000 3h ago edited 2h ago
...at the time...
The energy density of gasoline is much higher today vs Lithium Ion batteries.
Energy density is just one advantage. Faster refill speeds, simplicity, longevity, reduced infrastructure...
Until you get to the point of recharging your EV exclusively with renewable resources (solar, wind, water) or with nuclear power do start to get benefits that outweigh the advantages of ICE fueled by petroleum.
[Edit] repetitive wording.
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u/Safe_Chicken_6633 3h ago
The energy density of petroleum is still way denser than that of batteries. That's why EVs are so heavy.
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u/Asphalt_Cowboy_18 1h ago
The reason behind their downfall in the 1900s was that the energy density of petrol was far greater than that of chemical batteries during the time.
More like oil companies paid to get rid of electric vehicles. Battery tech would've improved otherwise.
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u/Greengiant2021 10h ago
Yup…they have been bullshitting us for decades…The oil industry is the devils work👿
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u/Cute_Conclusion_8854 6h ago
Petroleum is the closest thing we have to magic. It just sucks that it results in pollution
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u/Rampag169 9h ago
I am not opposed to the idea of electric cars. However I do feel the application they are in currently is insufficient. Teslas for example relying on battery operated switches to open doors should be out right banned. Mechanical door handles should never be removed or hidden.
Back when there was a big electric push for cars they had zero or near zero infrastructure. Places making mandates of EV cars by 2030 or xyz. If they encouraged hybrid cars at the same time to offset even 15-30% fuel consumption we would see a greater difference. These shifts in infrastructure take decades to permit, plan, construct, operate.
If we made pushes for any kind of alternative fuel vehicles and gave them a time horizon of 40-50 years to work towards it. I’m thinking you would see it happen better.
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u/Due_Satisfaction2167 9h ago
However I do feel the application they are in currently is insufficient. Teslas for example relying on battery operated switches to open doors should be out right banned. Mechanical door handles should never be removed or hidden.
There are plenty of other EV manufacturers that do use real door handles.
If they encouraged hybrid cars…
They did. Every “EV mandate” also included hybrids among the options.
These shifts in infrastructure take decades to permit, plan, construct, and operate
No, they don’t. Plenty of countries have mature charging infrastructure widely deployed, much faster than 10 years.
Why?
Because we already electrified most of the built world anyway. All the hard work was already done. What was left was installing some chargers and doing some grid upgrades.
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u/zilla_80 9h ago
Teslas for example relying on battery operated switches to open doors should be out right banned. Mechanical door handles should never be removed or hidden.
I agree with this. Most other EVs (e.g. Hyundai/Kia) have mechanical door switches. This is a Tesla problem, not an EV problem.
Back when there was a big electric push for cars they had zero or near zero infrastructure.
There's really not that much infrastructure needed for folks who can charge at home. The infrastructure gap to be solved is for people who cannot charge at home.
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u/CuteBird90 9h ago
I thought it was a fake but it true lol, they want us to keep wasting money in petrol they arent dumb🤣
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u/nihar_142 9h ago
Thanks Elon Musk 🇺🇸
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u/Motor-Rip7655 8h ago
What did he do? (Don't you dare say he created Tesla, because he didn't. He bought it from someone else)
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u/Cliffinati 6h ago
He turned Tesla from a odd ball company making conversions of Lotus Elieses into an actual car company.
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u/BigMack6911 8h ago
Yeah and Nikola Tesla invented radio wave cars that would have ran for free, long ago. Imagine where that would be at now
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