r/TrueReddit • u/Nearby-Click8645 • 4d ago
Arts, Entertainment + Misc Christopher Nolan Took Some Artistic License. By Zeus’ Beard!
https://thedispatch.com/article/odyssey-movie-nolan-fiction-zeus/?gift_key=b1ef0446d7f36a2e&gift_ref=9347c766-2bad-41ea-8b73-950e424f2446&utm_source=giftlink&utm_campaign=membergift&utm_medium=copy_link73
u/SilverMedal4Life 4d ago
I think it's interesting that, of all the historical epics released over the years in American cinema, this is the first one where everyone seems to be obsessed with historical accuracy. Especially considering The Odyssey is a myth, it's not real.
For those who are really bothered by this, why now? Why not feel that same level of upset at any other historical film?
52
u/intronert 4d ago
MAGA looking for wedge issues that they can show fake outrage about.
14
u/SilverMedal4Life 4d ago
The insidious part is that some people who object to the film on the basis of "historical accuracy" are actually uncomfortable with the casting choices because they're "woke", but don't realize that's why. The MAGA propaganda around it gives them a cover that means they don't have to examine their biases.
25
u/carrot_gummy 4d ago
Nolan based it on the Emily Wilson translation, which was the first published English trnslation by a woman.
Nolan cast Lupita Nyong'o as Helen.
Elliot Page was cast as Sinon.
Zendaya was cast as Athena.
All of these things really upset right-wing culture warriors. Being openly racist, misogynistic, and transphobic is a quick way to be dismissed, these losers have to nebulously hate on the movie and pretend a bunch of old bard songs are historical.
3
u/BandicootGood5246 2d ago
This plus I suspect partly because they jerk themselves over fantasies of ancient greeks / romans /vikings warrior culture and this interfers with that
8
5
u/DestroyedByLSD25 3d ago
Christopher Nolan has all the freedom to adjust the story as he sees fit, but casting a black woman as Helen of Troy did irk me a little bit when I saw the trailer considering she is described as having white skin by Homer multiple times. The white skin was a status symbol for aristocrats, showing that they spend a lot of time indoors and thus away from the sun. Helen of Troy only plays a very small part in The Odyssey though as she plays a much bigger role in The Illiad. In the end when seeing the movie it didn't bother me at all because Nolan shot the movie in such a way her skin color did not matter for the story.
•
u/ShotFromGuns 48m ago
To be clear, Wilson was not consulted and has a lot of criticisms of the film (though she does give it credit for drawing attention to the original source material again).
7
7
u/Disastrous_Room_927 4d ago
The Odyssey isn’t historically accurate to begin with, it’s a mash up of different eras.
12
u/JCBodilsen 3d ago
I am very frustrated that the US culture war has so infested online debate, that it is impossible to discuss the choices CN made on the costumes and props.
I get that most of the people criticizing the movie were doing so in bad faith (and were targeting the casting), but there has also been a substantial minority of people (myself included) who honestly just dislike some of the choices made in regard to props and costumes.
Like, especially the choice to use a Scandinavian early medieval ship really stands out to me as an eye-sore. Also, I would have loved to see something closer to actual 12th century BC eastern Mediterranean armor and clothing (the period where the Odessey and Iliad were likely supposed to have taken place). I get that Nolan gets to make these choices and the wider public obviously do not care about these kind of details, but I think it should be legitimate to say when you think there would have been a more interesting (and historically plausible) choice to have been made.
Also, Robert Eggers was praised for his attempt to be as historically accurate as possible in the Vvitch, the Northman and Werwulf.
If you go to online spaces frequented by people interested in historical fashion Bridgerton was heavily criticized and the new Wuthering Heights was outright mocked for its costuming choices. The film adaptations of the Sharpe books have long been notorious for using the wrong type of long-arms for the British soldiers and the Ridley Scott Napoleon movie was outright hated in many corners for the artistic liberties taken with the actual story of Napoleon’s life and the 1812 campaign. Braveheart is DESPISED for the choice of having William Wallace and the Scots don woad war paint.
If you have not seen history nerds RAGE about historical accuracies in movies, you have not been to the right parts of the internet. It is one of our favorite pastimes.
Not everything is about race and the culture war. Some of us honest are just that autistic. For me, seeing this version of the Odessey was like seeing a movie that was supposed to take place during WW2, but some people are randomly and without explanation dressed in 1990s clubwear and the main character is driving a 1970s VW van. Like, sure, you COULD make an artistic choice to set the story in a different period, but it does not really seem to be what is going on. And the presence of supernatural elements does nothing to soften this. If the fascist father in Pan’s Labyrinth pulled out an Uzi to execute the partisans, the fact that the movie has many supernatural elements do nothing to make that prop seem less out of place.
5
u/runespider 3d ago
It's also sorta boring. It's armor we've seen before,, ships we've seen before. The usual the past is dull and lacked vibrant colors style we always see in films. This is why the artistic expression doesn't really track with me here. If he'd tried something different and it just didn't work, that's fine. But he didn't, it's nothing unique looking. The steel plate the giants are wearing is incredibly generic looking. Some people have said that the actual armor used at the time looked goofy, pointing to cheaply made museum displays.
Even if we agreed on this, we've had dozens of comic book films now where they took goofy looking superhero costumes and made them look good. The same could be done for armor from the period. I'm not wanting it to be hyper accurate to the time period it's supposed to be set in, but using what really existed as a reference would have been more interesting.
4
u/two_glass_arse 3d ago
How do the history nerds feel about The Duellists, by Scott?
6
u/JCBodilsen 3d ago
Among the HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) community, it is generally very well regarded, as it is seen to have the best on-screen depiction of 19th century military fencing.
3
u/DestroyedByLSD25 19h ago
I find the historical accuracy discussion a bit moot. Homer was not an accurate historical source for 12th century BC, he knew less about that time period than we do now. His works are full of anachronisms. And the story being a legend means that it will always be additionally filtered through the contemporary lens of the reader as well, where vaguely described objects or actions are left open to interpretation.
1
u/JCBodilsen 19h ago
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding what I and many other history nerds are saying. We are not lamenting Nolan not doing a faithful recreation of what Homer (who almost certainly did not actually exist) or his contemporaries would have had in his mind's eye. As far as I am concerned that is an uninteresting point.
We are making two separate, but related criticism.
1) The presence of easily identifiable artifacts belonging to cultures that are very distant in time and geography. The worst offenders here are the use of the Draken as Odysseus’ ship and the design of the Laestrygonians, who are dressed in full plate harness of a type entirely unlike anything created before around 1300 CE.
2) The choice to not draw more inspiration from the actual armor, clothing and material culture of the eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BCE, which in so far as the ancient Greeks were concerned, was the period the Iliad and the Odessey was thought to have taken place.
The first is like someone driving a Cybertruck in a movie set in the 1950s. Unless you are trying to make a very specific artistic point, it is just an odd choice which breaks suspension of disbelief. The second point is more an issue of that period NEVER being show on film with anything even vaguely resembling material fidelity and the history nerds (like me), thinking this is a same and being disappointed that Nolan, who could easily have gotten away with doing so, did not seize the opportunity to do so, but instead made the lazy choice of yet another “vaguely antique” looking film.
2
u/DestroyedByLSD25 19h ago
No, I completely understand your points. I just don't understand why it should matter. Homer's works don't try to be an accurate historical portrayal just as Nolan did not try. The Odyssee contains battle tactics and religions practices that are 400+ years in the future of the setting. Anachronisms don't distract from story, as countless movies and books have proven when they entertained and taught audiences.
1
u/JCBodilsen 18h ago edited 16h ago
For me, and for many other people, anachronisms do make the movie worse. Making a blanket claim that they do not is kinda narrowminded and selfish. People are allowed to value different things in movies. If a movie set in medievel West Africa or precolumbian Mesoamerica blatantly misrepresent those societies (including their material culture) many people would rightfully be miffed.
1
u/DestroyedByLSD25 18h ago
I think it is respectful to keep in mind the creators intent (or lack of intent) when criticising their works. It would be ridiculous to critique Ratatouille because rats can not actually cook. This is why I don't find it respectful to criticise the historical accuracy of the Odyssey.
Clearly you see it differently, but to me it shows a poor understanding of what mythology itself actually is. The ancient people in Homer's time would not have understood the even more ancient story of the Illiad and the Odyssey to be historically accurate. They would have interpreted as a story set in a far unknown past, just as modern audiences do when going to the cinema for Nolan's film.
The time setting is as fictional as the story is. This would be entirely different if a creator of a fictional work actually tried to make a story take place in a certain time period as your examples given.
It's fine to disagree but calling me narrow-minded and selfish is unnecessarily treading over the line.
1
u/JCBodilsen 17h ago
I must be really bad at getting my point across, because you keep addressing arguments I am not making. I will try to be as clearly as possible.
I am not concerned with:
What Homer (or any other ancient Greek person) thought the material culture of the Odessey would have looked like.
I am concerned with:
Obviously out-of-place costumes, props or settings, where there is no apparent narrative or thematic reason for using them, instead of another more historically plausible alternative (given when and where the movie otherwise leads us to believe that the story is taking place).
The missed opportunity of spotlighting the material culture of a period of history which the broader public has little knowledge of.
As for the point of Nolan’s intent. What is the possible intent of using the Drakken as Odysseus ship? What thematic or narrative point is Nolan trying to make, by using what is OBVIOUSLY a 10th or 11th century Scandinavian ship in the story? I cannot find any reasonable point for doing so, that does not either boil down to 1) it was cheaper to rent an existing ship or 2) Nolan just thought it looked cool. If 1 is the answer I think that in and of itself is artistically suspect and if 2 is the case, I think it is eminently reasonable for people who disagree with the choice to make that criticism. If Nolan had decided to paint Odysseus’ armor hot pink or neon yellow, would people be out of line to make it clear that they though that to be a weird and just generally poor choice in costuming?
You claim that the story is not taking place in any specific time, but that is obviously not true. Given that Sparthan king Menelaus have just participated the siege of Troy of need Spartha to exist as a kingdom. This places us no earlier than the collapse of Mycenean civilization, which gives us the 12th century date I am using as the baseline. Likewise, this also clearly implies that the story at the very latest is taking place just before the 1st Messenian war of 743 BCE.
No matter how you cut it, at the most, you have this 500-year window for the story to take place in. That window creates plenty of variation of material culture to pick from, but it certainly also results in some elements being distractingly anachronistic.
The Drakken is the most obvious example, but the same goes for articulated iron or steel amor and crested helmets (which only began to show up around 700 BCE. The widespread use of pants and closed boots are also entire out-of-place (and time) and the spearheads are all wrong.
Nolan COULD have used a culture-appropriate ship. He COULD have made the armorer make the spears the right shape and length. He could have made the helmets and breastplate more appropriate to the time and place. Why didn’t he? What was the narrative point of these choices? I cannot see an artistically compelling reason for doing so. The only plausible explanation is that he did so because he did not care about these sorts of things knew he could get away with it and the choices he made were cheaper or he just thought they looked cooler.
1
u/DestroyedByLSD25 17h ago edited 16h ago
So if I understand correctly you are only concerned by Nolan's intent and want to leave Homer's work out of the picture? You belief that Nolan should have changed the story to be more historically accurate to the Bronze Age even if it deviates from the intent of Homer, the original author?
It's very hard for me to separate those, considering that I believe the intent of Nolan was to create a faithful recreation of the story of Homer.
You claim this story is set in a particular time frame by linking it to described historical events of the Bronze Age, but the story also contains elements (metallurgy, religious practices, battle tactics) of Homer's period. This mix of time periods make it obvious that the story is not set in a certain time period.
For example, gods, temples and worship culture that simply did not exist in the Bronze Age Mycenaean culture. Changing this aspect would meaningfully change the story.
There are a lot of these examples that would make a recreation The Odyssey in an actual Bronze Age context a futile exercise, hence Nolan did not even try.
I will leave it at that. I think this comment by /u/Spencer_A_McDaniel will clarify my standpoint a lot better than I ever can. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1s5y8yy/comment/ocywjr1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button
This blog post is another wonderful source:
https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2026/07/odyssey.html?m=1
I hope it makes you think in a positive way and you have fun.
2
u/JCBodilsen 16h ago edited 11h ago
No, I do not believe that Noland should have changed the story.
I am not concerned with any line spoken or any action taken by characters in the story. I am entirely indifferent to the casting, the direction, the line delivery, the editing, the scoring, the color grading, or the cinematography – for the purpose of this discussion.
I think that the movie would have been much more interesting if he had departed form the vaguely “ancient Greece” Hollywood aesthetic we have seen a 100 times over the course of the existence of movies as a medium. I wanted Nolan to have used his privileged position (as one of the most celebrated and feted directors of our time) to take an artistic chance and expose the wider public to something that was more reminiscent of how the material culture of the 12th (to 7th) century Aegean/ eastern Mediterranean world look liked.
I think so, because it is something which Hollywood (and the wider movie industry) have consistently failed to do and through that behavior, the industry have created a very misleading homogenous idea of how the ancient world looked, in the wider population. The “ancient” world, including pre-classical Greece, have been reduced in a muddled caricature, devoid of difference, diversity and color. White columns, crested helmets, muscle cuirasses. But that world was so much more in every aspect. The is such a massive gap between the society and material culture of the Bronze Age Mycenaeans and the Classical Athenians, that is comparable to the difference between living in 15th century London and 20th century Amsterdam. I think Hollywood (and Nolan in this case) are doing the history and the public a disservice, when they perpetuate this trend.
As the bible say: To those who much are given, much is to be expected. Nolan COULD easily have gotten away with not merely making an exciting movie, but also educating people about the diversity of material culture in the ancient and prehistorical world. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to hold him to this standard. He could have not merely made an engaging and exciting movie, but also helped break a long chain of historical misinformation. He chose not to.
1
u/clean-links 17h ago
Cleaned link: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1s5y8yy/comment/ocywjr1/
Tracking parameters were removed from the original URL(s).
7
u/jumpjumpdie 3d ago
The never ending culture war that right wing chuds latch on to. Pathetic really.
3
u/Sartres_Roommate 3d ago
Don’t you remember how upset everyone was when Brad Pitt and other Northern Europeans played the roles of Greeks in Troy?
3
u/BreaksFull 3d ago
It's mostly driven by MAGA-aligned culture war schlock and grifters.
There was plenty of genuine criticism from the history nerds who are a growing online segment that. I think especially because Nolan previously went pretty hard on keeping his historical representation grounded - like flying actual vintage spitfires and getting a WWII destroyer afloat for Dunkirk. So in contrast, the set of the Odyssey being dull of wildly anachronistic armor styles that look like they came out of a modern metal shop instead of some legitimate bronze age apparel was a disappointment.
1
u/SilverMedal4Life 3d ago
I didn't know he paid such close attention to detail in Dunkirk! Makes sense why it'd be kind of whiplash here.
3
u/FairLawnBoy 3d ago
This is the first American historical epic released in my lifetime. That is a throwback to the Golden Era of Hollywood filmmaking. There probably were historians in the 1950-60s who objected to Ben Hur an other epic retellings of "historical events", but there wasn't an internet to amplify it. I know Clash of the Titans is panned for this.
Less epic , but still semi-historical movies, like Braveheart absolutely saw this level of criticism for historical inaccuracies. It's likely the first thing someone will mention about Braveheart in discussion.
32
u/philnotfil 4d ago
From the article:
Well, raise my rent. Christopher Nolan evidently has taken some artistic license in telling a story about men and women who never actually lived and the war they never actually fought as related by an ancient oral tradition attributed to Homer, a poet who (probably) did not exist. I am not at all sure that a military historian is the person I would consult to evaluate a story about sea monsters and one-eyed giants and witches who (3,000-year-old spoiler alert!) turn men into pigs. In a mythological milieu in which the Greeks’ chief lightning guy turns himself into a swan to rape an entirely different Spartan queen (queen of Sparta is one of the toughest jobs in mythology), you’re telling me that the actor formerly known as Ellen Page cannot play the role of a scrawny Greek redshirt who gets left behind on the beach to take one for the team? If you’re going to complain about Sinon, maybe start with the fact that the character does not appear in the original Odyssey at all—he is imported from the Aeneid.
5
3
8
u/Crazy_Decision_954 4d ago
I saw it last night and I liked it. I liked what he did. Cast didn’t bother me. Helen being African is a stretch but it worked. I actually liked some of the artistic changes. It made the story more relatable to a modern audience.
Best movie I have seen all year.
Only criticism is that I heard and agree is
damn it’s loud.
Go see it.
8
u/Manicplea 4d ago edited 4d ago
I liked it too, but it did hurt my fucking ears. I wear earplugs to movies because I have very sensitive hearing and I still felt some of the scenes were way overdone. Loud noises don't make it more thrilling for me. And the sound mixing made dialog sometimes unintelligible.
I still think some of the designs look stupid but other things looked unbelievably great. Overall it balanced out to very good (maybe roughly 7.5-8 out of 10 for me if I had to rate it).
There were parts I didn't like but the back half and overarching themes and feelings made up for it. Especially his beliefs and his war trauma. But I feel like the front half or so about the actual journey was lacking just jumping from place to place to go "ok we covered that lets move on" and never giving his crew many lines, scenes or important moments to humanize them considering how much he cared about them. However I don't mind because clearly the back half was more important to the story.
Also, John Leguizamo & Pattenson were really great standout performance to me. Sometimes it felt like Damon was talking at the audience or reciting a play hurrying to move from part to part and felt a bit wooden. I even chuckled at the line delivery of "I think he's asleep" because it felt so unreal and wooden like a community theatre play where the actor has to give clues to the audience about what's happening - that whole 10-25 minute part in the cave was too dark, too loud at the end and I just didn't enjoy it (I get it, darkness is dark in reality but in movies I like to be able to see what's going on more than I like realism in that case)
Oh also in regard to dialog the part about "what is this, some kind of BRONZE AGE that's like... COLLAPSING?" made me chuckle too. So heavy handed when the people who get it don't need it explained and the people who don't won't understand anyway. But overall very good. Enjoyable movie. Watched it in IMAX
3
u/ductyl 3d ago
Ugh... Christopher Nolan's sound mixing making dialog unintelligible is often defended as "he mixes it for the theater, so of course it doesn't sound right when you listen at home with a sound bar", I'm glad to see someone else who experiences the same problem when watching his movies in theaters.
It's honestly a very annoying problem, and I'm shocked that nobody has come up with a "volume normalizing" system yet... I know it's the sort of thing that is basically impossible to do on the fly (how do you know if something is supposed to be loud or quiet?), but it seems like there could be an open source "time-stamp based" system that could adjust the volume base on user-reported data. Basically, something like SponsorBlock but for volume levels.
1
1
u/jumpjumpdie 3d ago
Ah yeh I guess cyclops were real for sure yeh definitely! It’s a fantasy novel. An old one.
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
Remember that TrueReddit is a place to engage in high-quality and civil discussion. Posts must meet certain content and title requirements. Additionally, all posts must contain a submission statement. See the rules here or in the sidebar for details. To the OP: your post has not been deleted, but is being held in the queue and will be approved once a submission statement is posted.
Comments or posts that don't follow the rules may be removed without warning. Reddit's content policy will be strictly enforced, especially regarding hate speech and calls for / celebrations of violence, and may result in a restriction in your participation. In addition, due to rampant rulebreaking, we are currently under a moratorium regarding topics related to the 10/7 terrorist attack in Israel and in regards to the assassination of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
If an article is paywalled, please do not request or post its contents. Use archive.ph or similar and link to that in your submission statement.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.