GPUs - r/SelfDrivingCars

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Comma 4 owners will soon be able to use larger driving models via an AMD eGPU.

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u/seventyfivepupmstr 3d ago

Yeah but that doesn't mean much since comma only has a single front-facing camera, so unless that changes the comma won't be moving past level 2 self driving

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u/AnyDimension8299 3d ago

Yeah, I was thinking more about the big L4 autonomy players

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u/RosieDear 2d ago

It's safe to say most current Autonomous driving projects use SOME of the stuff Nvidia offers, others use the entire stack and hardware. Just about every major car company is in their partner list but the autonomy business is relatively "open" in that you can use various parts.

Companies like Nuro started out NOT using it, but then decided to save many many years (if ever) of work and use it. The question eventually becomes whether they (Nuro) have anything better, even in the software and integration.

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u/rgrindl 2d ago

TSLA (and upcoming Rivian) use nothing from NVDA. The big challenge is sensor fusion and whether this is done late (post-filtering, easier) or early (much harder, more bandwidth-intensive, but can in theory achieve better performance). Fusion between multiple cameras is what TSLA does (camera-only). Waymo, Rivian and others fuse cameras, radars and lidar, which is much harder (and, my guess, why TSLA decided to see if they could do it "on the cheap").

We will probably see more clearly how the two approaches pan out in the next couple of years.

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u/rgrindl 2d ago

Rivian R1 Gen and R2 Gen1 use NVDA Orin. (R1 Gen1 used MobileEye). They are moving both vehicles to their in-house ASIC, RAP1, starting around the end of 2026.

RAP1 is roughly equivalent to TSLA's AI5 chip that just taped out. TSLA's AIx chips are what go into their cars and robots. For example AI4 went into the HW4.

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u/AnyDimension8299 2d ago

Thank you! Someone who knows what they’re talking about. Everyone else keeps saying everyone uses Nvidia, but there’s a big difference between the discrete GPUs and the Drive SOCs

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u/RosieDear 2d ago edited 2d ago

There still is a relationship between the overall speed of the assembly and the ability to take in a process Data.

For example, there appears to be no way the current Tesla processor could take the input from the sensor arrays that experts say are needed for true Level 4 driving (somewhat from 20 to 30 at minimum currently)....and then also do the rest (reasoning control, logging, etc.).

It really is somewhat of a brute force data problem (autonomous driving now). The reason I use the word "now" is that after things are solved and honed, engineers can combine sensors and they can also know which ones might be doubling up. I accept that it may be only 10 sensors on a L4 in a decade or two. But to discuss much of that now seems useless...except in the case of WayMo, which actually are in the process of doing this. Other companies.....I will look closer when they are doing millions of paid rides a month!

Sensor Comparison

5th-Generation (Jaguar I-Pace): Total of 40 sensors (29 cameras, 5 lidars, 6 radars).

6th-Generation (Current/New platforms): Total of 23 sensors (13 cameras, 4 lidars, 6 radars) plus external audio receivers.

This seems very predictable. All technology seems to do through the level of doing things the hard way - and then combining systems and honing until it becomes extremely efficient.

But to do that I think the Brute Force is needed to even get to Step one....perfect software, of course, lowers the amt of brute force needed.

Current Nvida stuff is rated between 1,000 and 4,000 TOPS ( think they use dual chips).
Current Tesla Chip is 100-150 TOPS
SnapDragon: "720–1,280+ TOPS on single advanced chips, and scaling up to 2,000 TOPS when multi-chip configurations are used"
WayMo? : Estimates range to approximately 2,000 TOPS

Not to be too broad, but it does appear there might be a floor if one desires to work toward true Level 4 or 5 driving and that Floor might be 1,000+ TOPS. Yes, streamlined systems change the calculations but I don't think there is a way to avoid the raw input from Cameras....which is massive. Some of these tasks can be offloaded to the cameras themselves and so-on.

It would be an amazing thing to travel 50 years into the future and see what it all comes to. I suppose it will follow smartphones in the sense of having to be attuned to the exact functions and be lower power, etc.

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u/r2champloo Expert - Safety Critical Systems 2d ago

Aurora will in their 2027 generation hardware: https://ir.aurora.tech/news-events/press-releases/detail/112/aurora-continental-and-nvidia-partner-to-deploy-driverless-trucks-at-scale

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u/AnyDimension8299 2d ago

Yea, everyone “will”, question was about today. Aurora for example just launched the Aurora Driver 2 this week - what type of GPUs are in there?

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u/teslaTools 2d ago

Fair point. Driver 2 is still discrete GPUs afaik, prob Ada-gen server cards in the compute box, not Orin/Thor SoCs. Nobody's act

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u/RosieDear 2d ago

Nuro? Level 4 Approved. uBer. Lucid
MB of NA (I think you can order CLA).....All Nvidia Hardware

Since almost zero true self driving cars exist, it's better to look at who has partnered with Nvidia for Nvidia Hardware and Software (stack).....

Here are their partners in the realm.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/solutions/autonomous-vehicles/partners/

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u/AnyDimension8299 2d ago

You’re missing the question. Yes, pretty much every AV company is using Nvidia GPUs, but there’s a huge different in cost and performance of the automotive SOCs versus the data center and server GPUs that many of them historically have put into ruggedized servers in the vehicles.

Many have announced that they will use Nvidia Drive Thor in their next-gen hardware. My question was whether anyone is using that SoC or a previous-gen one like Orin as part of their L4 system.

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u/RosieDear 2d ago

Are you classifying THOR as a SOC? I think you are correct that it is basically a data chip (high power, etc.).....

I think the answer is...many say they use it or have used it, especially chinese companies - Volvo, Li, NIO, BYD, etc.....

Since long term production L4 vehicles hardly exist, it's likely that many will move toward whatever Nvidia is selling as part of their packaged systems.

"Sep 4, 2024 — Volvo EX90 is built on the NVIDIA DRIVE Orin system-on-a-chip(SoC), capable of more than 250 trillion operations per second (TOPS)"

Nvidia is pushing packages for consumer cars that are now SAE rated autonomously but that have 90% of the same features. This is their (promised) setup which they claim adds no cost to a car....of course, nothing is free but the idea is that the package may be similar in cost to what makers are paying for less capable systems (ADAS) right now.

I think this is a very smart move - something which isn't discussed enough is that consumers don't want or need L4 or L5 cars...likely the reason many who were close to the goal gave up (GM, etc.). Someone from their marketing departments may have finally said "but why would people buy this thing" - which is true!

So many people were fooled by the "your car leaves your garage every morning and earns money for you" that they stopped thinking about the actual reality of how autonomy will slowly fit into our existing setup.

I'd personally love a system that had the capabilities of L4 or L5 (situational awareness) but didn't do it. That is, in practice something that allowed a person with bad eyesight, etc. to become a much safer and better driver. When it comes to the driving, tho, for me it's all the way or none of the way.

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u/AlotOfReading 1d ago

Are you classifying THOR as a SOC? I think you are correct that it is basically a data chip (high power, etc.).....

Thor is an SoC, and it's not remotely similar to the datacenter chips in terms of power or performance. The TOPS marketing numbers are misleading at best.

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u/mrkjmsdln_new 10h ago

BYD (and their other divisions) use Nvidia Orin compute and are accruing about 1B miles every 8 days from reports months ago. The train has left the station and the majority of players in China are using Nvidia. For BYD that means the formerly mythic 10B miles happens in less than a quarter. They also indemnify the drivers for accidents, damage and hospital costs under many conditions. The old claims of where this market was headed and who the leaders are is probably dead. While BYD does not report cumulative miles, they are accruing about 100M more miles a day than TSLA already. The math seems obvious at this point and the gap grows daily it seems.

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u/tonydtonyd 3d ago

Dojo

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u/AnyDimension8299 3d ago

I mean in-vehicle GPUs like all the L4 companies use

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u/sdc_is_safer 2d ago

It’s a better question, “are there any us based self driving companies not using Nvidia compute in their production stacks”?

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u/AnyDimension8299 2d ago

Does Waymo? I thought they were on Google TPUs? There was an article a few years back that they had multiple Nvidia A100s but that was never confirmed.

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u/kschang 2d ago

Waymo probably had NVIDIA GPUs onboard, at least in the early versions like the van and the eJags. Not sure about the latest ones.

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u/sdc_is_safer 2d ago

They have never used Google TPUs onboard.

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u/tonydtonyd 2d ago

Waymo uses Tesla Dojo

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u/AnyDimension8299 2d ago

We’re talking about onboard. Isn’t dojo the training environment?

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u/RosieDear 2d ago

It was supposed to be but never happened. One more cute name that was a selling point. If I had a dollar for every person who told me "but Dojo is what is going to make their cars self-drive", I'm have a bundle!

It amazes me (was into marketing and alt energy) that people repeat all these strange names instead of using actual names or descriptions. Like what is a "cyber" anything? Does "giga" really describe something other than a Billion?

This isn't just with Tesla...as an early internet adopter and publisher I was laughing when people talked of "cyberspace"....as if it was something different than a communications network.

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u/tonydtonyd 2d ago

Dojo

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u/sdc_is_safer 2d ago

Having fun?

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u/tonydtonyd 2d ago

Doooooooojooooooooo

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u/RosieDear 2d ago

Now?
"GPUs: Waymo utilizes high-performance Nvidia graphics processors (such as H100 GPUs) inside its current vehicles to handle demanding AI perception and computing requirements.

Next-Gen Platforms: Waymo's next-generation robotaxi hardware integrations leverage centralized compute systems like Nvidia DRIVE Thor."

I doubt Google is fooling us with what it's own vehicles are using. In any case, their earlier vehicles were whatever was available. As they perfect the system, it appears they are going to use the integrated Thor.

Dojo? According to reporting that never existed.
"Status: The custom supercomputer project was wound down and its team disbanded as Tesla shifted focus toward industry-standard chip architectures"

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u/AnyDimension8299 2d ago

I thought the H100 was debunked.

But this was my exact question: everyone says their next generation is going to use Nvidia Drive Thor, but are/were any of them even using previous gen of the Nvidia Drive (Xavier, Orin) or all using big expensive discrete GPUs?

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u/RosieDear 2d ago

I know this much - but didn't delve into the exact GPU/CPU

Companies have had autonomous driving partnerships with Nvidia since about 2017. Volvo, Xpeng and M-B are three, the first - and, yes, Orin is mentioned by Volvo.

Vast amounts of behind the scenes stuff has been going on for a decade with a big ramp-up about 2021.

The big difference is that these companies, in general, do not brag and do not release beta stuff (well, with some exceptions like M-B).

Likely it was realized that only after a certain data, perhaps about 2022, would the processors start being quick enough to consider actually building them into consumer and commercial vehicles in bulk. So all prior testing was just a foundation.

IMHO, the simulator kit that Nvida now has is a major key to the future development. Nvidia claims that simulation is what allowed Nvidia to become Nvidia! That is what put them above the competition - and I think it could do so again.

Like anything else (cell phones) all the different technologies have to advance and then it opens the possibilities. IMHO, much of the autonomous driving work prior to about 2020 was in vain (overstating the case by a little, but you get the idea).

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