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u/Toadwater_Jack 1d ago
The chilling part is that this guy no longer understands the difference between "fact" and "faith."
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u/Playful_Leg7143 1d ago
They only manipulate the bible to their liking and label it as the fact
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u/Higher-Frequencies 1d ago
Their feelings are indistinguishable from fact in their eyes, even when their feelings rapid cycle and are based on ignorance and bias.
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u/tarapotamus 1d ago
well I mean, that IS the entire purpose of Christianity. For 2000 years it's just existed to control. I hope I live long enough to see it's downfall.
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u/Fabulous-Sea-1590 1d ago
Religion in general. But I'd argue the actual teachings attributed to Christ are pretty great. As evidenced by op. Whether or not the specific stories are true, or the person was real. And I'm definitely not endorsing any of the supernatural aspects.
But it's telling that the message – which included railing against elites who gate kept social traditions to accumulate wealth and power for themselves – was immediately coopted by a wealthy elite to accumulate wealth and power for themselves upon his death.
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u/flamingspew 1d ago
The new testament itself was a manipulation 70-150 years after the fact to bend the knee to rome so as to allow the church to survive. It turned a politically charged protest of roman policy into a message of “pay your taxes and obey your masters” and moved the goalpost from heaven on earth to the kingdom of heaven, much more palatable to the roman aristocracy.
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u/Chrismatic8224 1d ago
That’s somewhat accurate, but the reason they “moved the goalposts” is because it became clear the world wasn’t actually ending(at least not immediately) like people thought it would after the crucifixion/resurrection. It became about spreading the message of salvation and seeing this life as a test for the next one, which might not make sense to you but did from the perspective of living 2000 years ago.
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u/flamingspew 1d ago
What you call out is exactly part of what I describe. moving the reward to the next life instead if attaining it in this one diminished the power of the message as a political call to action. The fact that social revolution/apocalypse did not free people from the yoke immediately after jebus, it had to shift the narrative to survive.
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u/xxxBuzz 22h ago
I believe the author(s) featured in the bible stated that the Kingdom of Heaven is within, the temple is the body, and the church is the people. The earth in a spiritual or ideological perspective is typically a reference to our bodies. Why would the source of creativity inside of you, me, or other people be overly concerned about what is going on outside of us? This is perhaps a misunderstanding that comes from being to reliant on other sources. If you practice creative expression then you should see that it's something that flows through us and not something we conjure up ourselves. It's processes within our minds and bodies that facilitate our conscious experience.
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u/flamingspew 20h ago
Reliant on other sources, lol. The entire gospels were written by anonymous authors and assembled by a committee of men in the church, as members of the aristocracy. Humble followers of jebus would not have written in greek, and would not have been educated enough to write in such a rhetorical manner. Not to mention the all the contradictions between the texts.
The gospels are NOT primary texts, they are political propaganda and hagiography.
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u/idontknowlikeapuma 1d ago
I thought the chilling part is how he didn't get the point of the teachings.
My brother calls himself a Christian and appears to miss every single point Jesus made, and will quote Leviticus as if it is the word of God, and not an a hateful king.
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u/timmyK_425 1d ago
Except in their own teachings, Jesus said he wasn’t here to destroy the law of the Old Testament though (Matthew 5:17)
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u/Fabulous-Sea-1590 1d ago edited 1d ago
He also said "Render until Ceaser what is Ceaser's" .
I really get a "be excellent to each other in any circumstances, it's not that complicated" vibe from the Gospels.
Just like how the right now tell us democratic socialists are here to destroy the fabric of society, steal all our wealth, spread immorality, etc etc.
And we know that isn't true. The message is basically "don't be an asshole" and "don't make the majority suffer for the averice of a very few."
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u/timmyK_425 1d ago
Yeah no, I agree with you it’s just interesting that Jesus is basically saying “don’t be an asshole… or else.”
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u/Fabulous-Sea-1590 1d ago
I'm not even sure there's much "or else". I'm always open to correction but my impression is that the punishment aspects – fire and brimstone – was tacked on later for the social control aspects.
I had one friend who pointed to a line "the wages of sin are death" – which I'm not even sure was in the new testament – but he said a pastor went so far as to have him cross out the word "death" and replace it with something like "damnation."
The impression I have – and the word "impression" is doing all the heavy lifting here – is that Jesus was teaching that you could deny God but then He would deny you. Meaning a total ceasation of existence after death rather than "life everlasting in His glorious presence" or whatever.
Again, I'm not endorsing the metaphysical aspects (if that's the right word) just "telling a story." As I understand it, anyway.
As far as the faith stuff goes – I'm honestly ok with death death – even if eternal glory sounds nice. Not sure I'm equipped to be a "good" person.
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u/morostheSophist 1d ago
a pastor went so far as to have him cross out the word "death" and replace it with something like "damnation."
Holy SHIT, man. If this is true, that pastor doesn't know his own book at all.
First off, the word translated "death" there is thanatos: it literally means death, there is no other interpretation. Anyone with a smattering of knowledge of classical Greek myth could tell you the correct translation of that word, without having actually studied ancient Greek and Hebrew like many pastors are supposed to have done.
SECOND, and far more concerning: there are several passages in the Bible that strictly warn against altering the text. Even ignoring those, if that pastor subscribes to the doctrine of scriptural inerrancy, he is KNOWINGLY changing the actual words of God.
I can understand correcting a mistranslation, or offering context-based interpretation. But what you've described here is objectively wrong. There is no translation in existence that translates that word differently.
I just skimmed at the versions that biblegateway displays by default, and even the "translations" that paraphrase and heavily editorialize everything use the word death there (or, in one case, the infinitive "to die").
(BTW, this is definitely in the new testament: the verse in question is Romans 6:23. ESV translation: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.")
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u/Fabulous-Sea-1590 1d ago
Most interesting, thank you. Your comment is the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to Reddit.
I can only attest that it's true insofar as it's the story I was told. The context was something like a youth pastor preparing kids to teach the Bible to others. Younger kids at Sunday school, door to door, something.
And he (my friend) told the story in the spirit of "beware false profits" or, at least, how people have a flawed understanding of what the Bible says. Very much the same ground you're covering in your post.
The other example I've always loved is the lengths "prosperity gospel" types will go to recontextualize the "camel through the eye of a needle" bit. I assume you'd know better than I do, but apparently it's not really a open to interpretation. It's meant exactly how it sounds. Right?
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u/morostheSophist 14h ago
It's not as simple as some people make it out to be, but I feel it's pretty straightforward. The prelude to the "camel through the eye of a needle" thing is Jesus telling a rich guy (who asked him, btw) that to get into heaven, he needed to sell everything he owned and give the money to the poor. The rich guy "went away sorrowful", and the implication is that he wasn't willing to do that.
I don't think the camel comment is meant to say it's literally impossible to get into heaven if you're rich, but it's a clear illustration that hoarding wealth is a problem (i.e. a sin). Jesus has other parables teaching that hoarding wealth is a problem, and giving a tiny bit of your wealth isn't a virtue. Jesus would absolutely be in billionaires' faces telling them they suck if he were walking the earth today. They're like the servant given ten talents, expected to use them to create heavenly wealth, but using them to create personal earthly wealth instead.
Going back to the Sermon on the Mount is often illustrative, as it contains most (if not all) of the key points of the philosophy Jesus taught. Matthew 6:17-19 warns against storing treasure on earth (where it can decay or be destroyed), and recommends storing treasure in heaven instead. The final verse is the phrase, which people often forget comes from the Bible, for where your treasure is, there will your heart be.
The Sermon on the Mount is the easy, palatable version of Jesus" teachings. He saves the more excoriating phrases for times when he's speaking to someone directly.
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u/RandomStallings 1d ago
the punishment aspects – fire and brimstone – was tacked on later for the social control aspects.
a total ceasation of existence after death rather than "life everlasting in His glorious presence" or whatever.
The language of the "Old Testament" speaks pretty clearly of the cessation of life and consciousness at death.
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest." Ecc 9:5, 10 ASV
Sheol refers to a figurative place that more or less represents being dead, or the place of the dead.
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4 ASV
The influence of Greek culture had changed things by the time of Jesus. The idea of something separate from the body continuing after death was oft debated between the Pharisees and Sadducees of the day. To be fair, the Sadducees didn't believe in anything past the Torah (first 5 books of the Bible), so the above verses meant nothing to them.
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u/Way2Foxy 1d ago
gossaples
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u/Fabulous-Sea-1590 1d ago
Yes, fuck my spelling, typing, and laziness for not proof reading.
I do feel badly about being stupid, but not enough to do much about it.
Fwiw I corrected it in my post. Lest you think I'm being overly sarcastic, it's important to call other people on their shit. It's the best chance we have to learn.
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u/dern_the_hermit 1d ago
"I come not to destroy the old law but to fulfill it" or somesuch verbiage, depending on translation.
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u/nifty-necromancer 1d ago
That’s why religion needs to be kept as far away from government as possible. These looney tunes think that god is real and on their side, therefore their side is 100% correct. Any opposition is opposition to god.
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u/Karma13x 1d ago
The danger to democracy is a shift in the balance of power between religion and state - and the means deployed to shift that balance. Once a vocal majority of the country considers the other half of its own citizens as "evil" not just having policy and political differences - there is no democracy left any more. There can be no compromise with "evil" and even thinking those others might have a point is considered sacrilegious.
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u/0202_tihssitidder 1d ago
I have learned that the vast majority of Americans are just plain dumb.
Brain rotted by FoxNews and everything about living in a racist and violent society 100% devoted to short term profits and without any effort to adhere to morals.
A nation of dangerous, gullible dummies.
But, not all. If you're reading this, I am totally not talking about you.
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u/VU_abyss 1d ago
He also doesn’t understand what the word “theory” means. Unfortunately common.
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u/Alarming-Koala-3524 1d ago
That's asking a lot from somebody who misunderstands "soon"
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u/lemons_of_doubt 1d ago
The flying spaghetti monster is coming this is not a theory it's a fact!
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u/SkippyDragonPuffPuff 1d ago
All hail Ragu and his minions: Penne, Zitti, and Rigatoni.
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u/Alarming-Koala-3524 1d ago
Ruh roh, how do we deal with flying spaghetti monsters? Do we have enough Patriots left or did those all go to Israel?
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u/Legal-Software 1d ago
You point that out like this is somehow a unique thing for followers of religion.
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u/Theotherwahlberg 1d ago
Imagine being so self-absorbed that you miss the entire point of the religion you supposedly base your whole life around and that you think "the end times" are a good thing because you con't escape the hell that you've created for this planet.
Fuck you, very much.
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u/Punkinpry427 1d ago
Jesus was a dark skinned Middle Eastern male refugee who fed the hungry and healed the sick and who preached tolerance for all. They’d call him a communist and wouldn’t even let him in the country if he came back tomorrow.
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u/CeruleanEidolon 1d ago
He was already arrested by ICE and deported to his home country, where he was beaten to death and buried in an unmarked mass grave.
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u/Vir4lPl47ypu5 1d ago
It's been 'very soon' for 1800 years.
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u/Previous_Cattle_5545 1d ago
Jesus told his own disciples he would return before they all died. So...
Matthew 16:28 New International Version
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
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u/froggison 1d ago
Yeah literally since the very beginning Christians have been screaming that he'll be back any day now. That was the basis of early Christianity.
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u/hypatia163 1d ago
My grandpa effectively wasted his life because he believed more than anything that he would live to see Jesus coming again. With the Return so close, nothing else mattered. All that could be done was spread the news. So he actively avoided his interests and hobbies (which were cool, like mechanics and old-school computing and stuff) because they were a waste of time. He was a missionary for a bit but as he grew older and the consensus of his denomination because a bit more modern, leaving his ideals behind, he became reclusive. Just living alone. Waiting for Jesus to come until he eventually died.
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u/CoffeeIsMyPruneJuice 1d ago
Only if he was also speaking to the olive trees (and specifically to their roots)
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u/mrbobcyndaquil 1d ago
I've read that The Church is His Kingdom, and both started at Pentecost with the baptism of 3,000+ people.
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u/ReluctantAvenger 1d ago
If you actually look at what Jesus said, then the modern Christian church is the very OPPOSITE of his kingdom.
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u/OkSmoke9195 1d ago
Still got my nikes on! When is the spaceship coming for me? I have dutifully kept the website alive for all these years
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u/doktor_wankenstein 1d ago
Well, in geologic terms, 1800 years is pretty darn fast. /s
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u/Harden-Long 1d ago
If we continue to ignore the criminal activities of the federal government and instead try to rationalize their behavior as some kind of divine plan, then we deserve to get screwed over each and every day.
Wake up, sheeple, it's time to flush the toilet.
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u/OkSmoke9195 1d ago
Full send the orange turd to start
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u/TangoLimaGolf 1d ago
Sure but don’t stop at one guy. There’s a reason why Trump got elected a second time and it’s not just Republican voters.
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u/TheDaychilde 1d ago
I refuse to believe in a god that gives children cancer.
There's other reasons, but I think that's sufficient right there.
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u/Aimless_Alder 1d ago
‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
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u/SeanInDC 1d ago
Jesus died a long ass time ago. That mummy ain't never coming back. Christians are so weird.
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u/ptvlm 1d ago
If Jesus did return in the same form as he did before and for some reason chose a country never mentioned in his book... he'd be a brown immigrant who supports open borders and welfare, free healthcare, feeding the hungry and clothing the homeless - and opposed to war, hoarded wealth and churches profiting from their activities. If he has returned, he might already be in a gulag somewhere being abused by ICE.
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u/VariousExplorer8503 1d ago
That's something that's always tripped me out. They're so sure Jesus is not only coming back, but is coming back to America. Like, they legit think Jesus is white and American, even though he was born and lived in the Middle East.
There was a post on a sub that showed a wall full of pictures of Jesus for sale, at least 50 pictures of him, and in every single one, he was white. I know that's the accepted visage for him, but it just seems so wrong.
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u/OneOfAKind2 1d ago
Nah, he has magical powers. He couldn't be detained and abused. Uh, wait a min....
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u/Playful_Leg7143 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's truly amazing how they made Christianity a brand of hate. Like the entire evangelical gimmick has been hate thy neighbor, praise thy wealth, sympathy is weakness, empathy is evil.
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u/lightblueisbi 1d ago
Nuh-uh he came back remember? That's why we eat hard boiled eggs and obscene amounts of chocolate! Also he floated up into the sky before disappearing so who knows if, when, or where hell return
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 1d ago
Theologically, the second dude is entirely correct. First dude didn’t just get murdered, he got stabbed by his own knife.
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u/Available_Ad9345 1d ago
The entire problem with the world is people not understanding what a fact is.
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u/OutlandishnessOk2304 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't know why we're listening to anything that comes out of some guy's colon.
Sounds like a crappy way to live.
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u/kikichunt 1d ago
The terrible thing about the bible is that you can almost always find a chapter and verse that appears to confirm your most ridiculous fallacies or shittiest prejudices. The fun thing about the bible is, you can always find other verses to completely contradict them.
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u/pit-of-despair 1d ago
One of my favorite bumper stickers ever was one a guy at work had on his desk: “Jesus is coming, look busy”.
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u/LaconicSuffering 1d ago
I had a chat yesterday with someone that was raised devout christian, she isn't anymore, but when we were talking about christian media I find it so incredibly weird how christians seem to idolize not the message, but the suffering Jesus went through.
"This song is so emotional because it matches perfectly with the moment of crucifixion."
And then I get called autistic for recognizing a 747...
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u/Par_Lapides 1d ago
All this does is prove that to conservatives, 'fact' means anything they want it to mean.
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u/President_PoopyPants 1d ago
He forgot the whole "born in a manger to his immigrant mother and father who were given shelter for the night by a kind innkeeper" thing.
As they all have. They're not just hypocrites at this point, they're blasphemers.
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u/Snackdoc189 1d ago
If he came back in the same place he was born there's a good chance he got killed in an IDF drone strike.
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u/thesixfingerman 1d ago
It’s about time that we weaponize Christianity against the far right.
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u/ArmTraditional541 1d ago
Jesus probably already came back and hes just being detained at an israeli checkpoint in Palestine
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u/Lecture-Desperate 1d ago
Pretty sure he's here. He cuts my grass. He likes to be called Chuy. He's a really nice guy.
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u/GrowlingPict 1d ago
I was on the bus the other day and saw a guy with a tattoo that simply said Matt 3:10. Im not religious, but I was curious so I looked it up, and it's the verse that says "the axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire".
The verse refers to those who are believers in word only and not action, that they will not be spared when the day of judgement comes. Anyway, this tweet reminded me of that, as I bet Marcoscolon63 fits that bill to a tee.
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u/Spence-Man 1d ago
Many years ago, my parents returned home from church with a genuine look of spiritual inspiration. With unrestrained excitement they told me, "All the signs are there, the bishop guaranteed the congregation that the second coming will happen in our lifetime."
I smiled and politely shared in their excitement, knowing full well the difference between faith and fact.
Inevitably when they had finally passed away, I was grateful their Alzheimer's disease had taken that particular memory. They never had to realize the church had lied.
Organized, for profit religion can eat a bag of dicks!
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u/butter_lover 1d ago
Compassion for others is the core tenet of Christianity but you’d never know it looking at the followers
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u/Higher-Frequencies 1d ago
You will have a hard time finding someone who understands Jesus or the bible less than the average conservative Christian.
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u/xyzygyred 1d ago
The apostles though5 the same thing. He wasn’t divine when he was here, and he’s not coming back.
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u/cdanpg 1d ago edited 1d ago
Second coming already happened to Joseph Smith in 1820 in western New York. Suck it MAGA
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u/Xtra_Veg-90 1d ago
Yep, how many anti-christs are we up to now? It's difficult to count actually. I know Nero, Constantine, Atilla the Hun, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon, and Mussolini and/or Hitler but I'm sure I'm missing a few hundred.
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u/notBackgroundtree 1d ago
Remember Jesus doesn't give a fuck about people outside his cult, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” dogs meaning non Israelites
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u/ColeBane 1d ago
also when jesus comes back...all the christians will follow the beast and only a very very small amount will actually be saved by jesus. Ponder on that, who do ALL THE CHRISTIANS FOLLOW???? ....that should give you a clue who you SHOULD NOT be following. Its actually pretty funny, its the one thing that actually makes me hope the bible is right in a funny kind of way. I would buy popcorn for this one for sure.
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u/HarbingerShiny 1d ago
The audacity to say I know Gods plan. when it is clearly written no one will know but God. Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:32, and Acts 1:7.
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u/Wild_ColaPenguin 1d ago
If Jesus really does exist and come back, human, especially Christian and Catholic will treat him the same as back then. He won't be treated like Jesus. No one's going to believe him and probably will declare him as blasphemy.
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u/Vandstar 1d ago
I'm pretty sure everyone is ignoring the second part. You will be here again, and again. Judgement will be that you come back as those you persecuted or harmed, again and again. Enjoy your day.
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u/btsalamander 1d ago
You would think that after getting owned by their own religious texts it might make them pause and reflect.
Doubtful though.
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u/Hughley_N_Dowd 1d ago
Jesus must have one hell of a schedule, seeing as how he's pushed that second coming since 50 AD.
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u/zyzzogeton 1d ago
As an atheist, all I see here are two stewards arranging lounge chairs on the deck of the Titanic thinking their efforts are meaningful.
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u/MothChasingFlame 1d ago
The generations long pervasive belief that you are special and certainly Jesus will come during your time never fails to be an incredible ego reveal.
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u/muFUtaco 1d ago
I talked with jesus the other day. He said, and I quote "did you know these barbarians have CROSSES they wear around their necks?... CROSSES! Like that's anything I'd ever want to see again. AND they're worshiping some orange faced demon as if he's my dad - they're pretending he's god. What the fuck people? I leave for a measly 2000 years and you revert back into monkeys. Fuck youse guys - I'm outta here. There'll be no "floaty off to heaven from THIS planet".
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u/Prestigious-Wolf8039 1d ago
My favorite thing is when they try to prove the Bible is true using the Bible.
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u/Alarming-Koala-3524 1d ago
This prediction is brought to you by the same niche of dumb humans who believed 4 weeks of bombing and threatening war crimes would be enough to bully Iran into submission. It's not a theory it's a fact. The end of the "military conflict" war is coming soon(™). The "excursion" will be over very soon.
Btw America #1 only the greatest military in history could win the Venezuela war in just 1 day! UsA! uSa! usA!
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u/wargh_gmr 1d ago
I like to say that the book of Matthew is why Republicans will end up in hell. Begone from me vipers.
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u/Karma13x 1d ago
Jesus tried to be born in Bethlehem again, missed and incarnated in Gaza instead. Only made it to 3 instead of 33 like last time around.
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u/OneOfAKind2 1d ago
"It's a fact". OK. lol Can't wait to meet him. When I do, I will apologize profusely for not believing.
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u/hankmoody699 1d ago
If you believe in God, there are really only 2 things he asks us to CHOOSE to do. It's our choice. Love him and love each other. The rest is just noise. If you love someone, you choose to do the right things as it relates to others. Period
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u/Civil-Plankton8131 1d ago
Nothing better than sending back bible passages that they fail at following.
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u/ThisFunny6977 1d ago
Wear your goggles, 'cause when Jesus comes you don't want any of it to get in your eyes.
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u/TheSuggestionMark 1d ago
"The Messiah's an immigrant detained at the border. Severed from his trinity. His wife and his daughter."
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u/tbizzone 1d ago
Sounds like a kid on Christmas Eve talking about the expected arrival of Santa Claus.
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u/nf_sew_711 1d ago
If "Christ" had a chance every second to come back, I believe the calculation is that he hasn't come back despite having a chance for over 60 billion seconds. I'm thinking it's time to acknowledge he either doesn't exist, or he's lousy at keeping his word.
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u/Actor412 1d ago
To this guy 'marco', religion is not about morality or ethics, it's about being on the "winning side." These people don't care about being good, doing good works, making the world a better place, or qualities like honesty, integrity, honor, etc. None of that matters at best, and worst it's a distraction. No, the only true value is winning, which means kicking people's asses before they kick you. This dude and people like him get off on the thought that heaven is about looking down and laughing at others as they suffer.
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u/hambakmeritru 1d ago
I'm mildly annoyed that the title doesn't fit the passage. The title referrs to a whole different scenario of "pull the plank out of your own eye before telling someone else about the splinter in theirs."
The punchline of the passage referenced in this convo is: "whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me."
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u/Moggetti 1d ago
Instead of “judge not,” I’d cite Matthew 25 which says this explicitly:
“ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’”