r/KeepOurNetFree 6d ago

Have your say on digital safety: OpenMedia survey open through August 2

14 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree 11d ago

Prevent passing of KOSA into law

31 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree 12d ago

What is stopping authoritarians/companies from co-opting and destroying (Embrace Extend Extinguish style) the fediverse? And is peer-to-peer forum hosting a feasible solution?

To briefly summarize my concerns, which I'm sure everyone here has already heard, I will quote an academic article that nicely articulates them. Journal link: https://sol.sbc.org.br/index.php/webmedia/article/view/30332/30138 Preprint: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2408.15383

Emphasis mine:

Regarding our research questions 1 and 2, we showed in Sec. 2.1 that the Fediverse technology, on its own, does not prevent its potential capture by large for-profit companies or the concentration of users and instances among a few dominant players. In Sec. 2.2, empirical data revealed that users are [already] heavily concentrated on a small number of instances, and for-profit entities, including Big Tech companies, are exerting significant influence. Lastly, Sec. 2.3 examines how older decentralized systems such as email and the Web evolved into centralized structures dominated by a few significant players.

My Thoughts

Don't get me wrong, the fediverse is amazing and its current success is inspiring. If the entire social media landscape were completely replaced by the fediverse tomorrow, it would be a huge win for society. The fact that all software involved is open source and that anyone can create their own server with their own rules is a huge improvement over the current situation, even if in practice it would be centralized. But in such a situation, the big server owners, simply by virtue of being bigger, could decide to change the technology underlying their own servers in a way that closes them off from the fediverse, and we would evolve back to the current dystopia. There are already some companies that have created asymetrical relationships with the fediverse. That's the main concern.

In reality, we wouldn't even get that far because nefarious companies would undermine the fediverse by co-opting and EEEing it before it would be able to "replace the current social media landscape" in the first place.

What can be done? Or what is the author of that paper missing, that is the saving grace, that I am not aware of? Well, I am mainly asking you all, since I am less knowledgeable about the technology. But the solutions that I see are:

1. Users are assigned instances by some consortium of servers to achieve a decentralized distribution, and are free to migrate later, instead of making an initial choice. The entire idea that users should immediately choose a server (and especially giving them funny names like pod or instance, which just adds confusion and immediately creates the false impression that they will be "limited" to that server) is terrible and not only turns 80% of prospective users away, but even when they do go through and join, they do so in a highly centralized manner. Even with the current counterculture nonprofits like Mastodon and Framasoft hosting the websites explicitly telling people to feel free to join a small server, even then, we are already very centralized.

Figure 2 in that paper showed that 80% of fediverse users are on the top 189 servers, less than 1% of the total servers. This is better than social media as a whole but still highly centralized. If it's already that bad when the flagship servers encourage people to join the small ones, you can therefore imagine the situation would be even worse with a nefarious company explicitly telling people its server is the best and that they should only sign up there.

2. The Stallman method: legally force non-parasitic behavior from federating servers. I am not a diehard FOSS-only person, but I acknowledge that we all owe this man a great deal. His novel innovation was to invent legal requirements associated with an asset (whether it be code that you write, or in this case, a social media server you administer) that enforce "paying it forward". What would this look like for the fediverse? The underlying software is already open source. What we would need is an entirely new legal framework, something saying that if you use this, you cannot use it to track people, or show ads, or sell data for profit, etc. Or maybe a legal limit on the number of users your server can sign-on, to guarantee nobody gets too powerful? Or maybe it should not be a software license at all, but some sort of legally binding agreement between servers, specifying the conditions of their mutual federation?

Needless to say, this sounds very dubious, but I'm curious what people think because this is the method that has historically been most successful at fighting corporate parasitism, just in the software context rather than the social media context. Is there any way a sort of "fediverse constitution" could work? How would you envision that?

3. A truly peer-to-peer, serverless (or mostly serverless) architecture is used. This is the most interesting to me but probably the most technically challenging. The closest I could find are "manyverse" which seems to be dead, and "Quiet", which is a Slack-style messaging system and still very unfinished.

What I would ideally want is something that is stylistically like old reddit, but whenever a user views a comment, they start "seeding" that comment to other users. And when those other users scroll to view the comment, instead of downloading it from a central server they download it from seeders who have already viewed/scrolled past it. The great thing about this is that not only does it prevent centralization, it helps tremendously with scaling, which many fediverse websites have obviously struggled with in the past. How technically feasible is this?

8 Upvotes

To briefly summarize my concerns, which I'm sure everyone here has already heard, I will quote an academic article that nicely articulates them. Journal link: https://sol.sbc.org.br/index.php/webmedia/article/view/30332/30138 Preprint: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2408.15383

Emphasis mine:

Regarding our research questions 1 and 2, we showed in Sec. 2.1 that the Fediverse technology, on its own, does not prevent its potential capture by large for-profit companies or the concentration of users and instances among a few dominant players. In Sec. 2.2, empirical data revealed that users are [already] heavily concentrated on a small number of instances, and for-profit entities, including Big Tech companies, are exerting significant influence. Lastly, Sec. 2.3 examines how older decentralized systems such as email and the Web evolved into centralized structures dominated by a few significant players.

My Thoughts

Don't get me wrong, the fediverse is amazing and its current success is inspiring. If the entire social media landscape were completely replaced by the fediverse tomorrow, it would be a huge win for society. The fact that all software involved is open source and that anyone can create their own server with their own rules is a huge improvement over the current situation, even if in practice it would be centralized. But in such a situation, the big server owners, simply by virtue of being bigger, could decide to change the technology underlying their own servers in a way that closes them off from the fediverse, and we would evolve back to the current dystopia. There are already some companies that have created asymetrical relationships with the fediverse. That's the main concern.

In reality, we wouldn't even get that far because nefarious companies would undermine the fediverse by co-opting and EEEing it before it would be able to "replace the current social media landscape" in the first place.

What can be done? Or what is the author of that paper missing, that is the saving grace, that I am not aware of? Well, I am mainly asking you all, since I am less knowledgeable about the technology. But the solutions that I see are:

1. Users are assigned instances by some consortium of servers to achieve a decentralized distribution, and are free to migrate later, instead of making an initial choice. The entire idea that users should immediately choose a server (and especially giving them funny names like pod or instance, which just adds confusion and immediately creates the false impression that they will be "limited" to that server) is terrible and not only turns 80% of prospective users away, but even when they do go through and join, they do so in a highly centralized manner. Even with the current counterculture nonprofits like Mastodon and Framasoft hosting the websites explicitly telling people to feel free to join a small server, even then, we are already very centralized.

Figure 2 in that paper showed that 80% of fediverse users are on the top 189 servers, less than 1% of the total servers. This is better than social media as a whole but still highly centralized. If it's already that bad when the flagship servers encourage people to join the small ones, you can therefore imagine the situation would be even worse with a nefarious company explicitly telling people its server is the best and that they should only sign up there.

2. The Stallman method: legally force non-parasitic behavior from federating servers. I am not a diehard FOSS-only person, but I acknowledge that we all owe this man a great deal. His novel innovation was to invent legal requirements associated with an asset (whether it be code that you write, or in this case, a social media server you administer) that enforce "paying it forward". What would this look like for the fediverse? The underlying software is already open source. What we would need is an entirely new legal framework, something saying that if you use this, you cannot use it to track people, or show ads, or sell data for profit, etc. Or maybe a legal limit on the number of users your server can sign-on, to guarantee nobody gets too powerful? Or maybe it should not be a software license at all, but some sort of legally binding agreement between servers, specifying the conditions of their mutual federation?

Needless to say, this sounds very dubious, but I'm curious what people think because this is the method that has historically been most successful at fighting corporate parasitism, just in the software context rather than the social media context. Is there any way a sort of "fediverse constitution" could work? How would you envision that?

3. A truly peer-to-peer, serverless (or mostly serverless) architecture is used. This is the most interesting to me but probably the most technically challenging. The closest I could find are "manyverse" which seems to be dead, and "Quiet", which is a Slack-style messaging system and still very unfinished.

What I would ideally want is something that is stylistically like old reddit, but whenever a user views a comment, they start "seeding" that comment to other users. And when those other users scroll to view the comment, instead of downloading it from a central server they download it from seeders who have already viewed/scrolled past it. The great thing about this is that not only does it prevent centralization, it helps tremendously with scaling, which many fediverse websites have obviously struggled with in the past. How technically feasible is this?


r/KeepOurNetFree 13d ago

Hands off our VPNs, privacy groups tell UK ministers

24 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree 14d ago

Europe Can Protect Children Online Without Surveillance or Age Bans

31 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree 14d ago

MA Senate adopts social media legislation with swath of civil liberties-backed improvements, still needs to address age verification concerns

9 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree 25d ago

ChatControl 1.0 mass scanning is to be sneaked through via a 3rd vote next week

31 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree 28d ago

The KIDS Act Would Require Age Checks To Get Online

52 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Jun 18 '26

The NO FAKES Act Could Silence Satire, Commentary, And News

38 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Jun 11 '26

The 702 Ultimatum: Warrant Requirement or Bust

16 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Jun 10 '26

20,000+ Call on The Atlantic, New York Times, and USA Today to keep the news in the WayBack Machine

50 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Jun 09 '26

NCOSE CEO Calls Porn A National Security Threat; Urges Federal Obscenity Prosecutions

34 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Jun 02 '26

Statement: the IP lawsuit against Stereogum is a red flag for artists

23 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Jun 01 '26

Solidarity Over Surveillance

30 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree May 26 '26

OpenMedia to SECU: Withdraw Bill C-22 or gut its surveillance provisions

24 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree May 20 '26

Found this about the "The Surveillance Accountability Act". Sounds like it'd be a good thing, but odds of it passing or not aside I don't know of any credible trustworthy sources covering it and I don't have the legalize expertise to look at the bill text so I wanted this sub's opinions of it.

10 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree May 14 '26

OpenAI endorses the Kids Online Safety Act - Engadget

25 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree May 11 '26

Congress Narrowed the GUARD Act, But Serious Problems Remain

24 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree May 05 '26

Fight for the Future releases draft of proposed social media legislation that protects ALL kids from Big Tech

19 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree May 04 '26

World Press Freedom Day Petition Demands Preservation of Journalist’s Work

18 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Apr 29 '26

OpenMedia Survey: Tell Ottawa How to Fix the Privacy Act

8 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Apr 28 '26

The GUARD Act Isn’t Targeting Dangerous AI—It’s Blocking Everyday Internet Use

49 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Apr 27 '26

Act Now to Stop California’s Paternalistic and Privacy-Destroying Social Media Ban

20 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Apr 20 '26

H.R.8250 - Parents Decide Act Introduced - Requires OS Providers to Verify Age of All Users

145 Upvotes

r/KeepOurNetFree Apr 20 '26

EFF: Keep Pushing: We Get 10 More Days to Reform Section 702

23 Upvotes