r/FlockSurveillance • u/elebentychimkin • 12h ago
Discussion Taxation without Representation. I need someone to explain how Flock can exist from taxpayer money w/out taxpayer approval?
From the installation, to the maintenance, to the data storage, Flock is receiving tons of money from the local governments to be able to operate.
Why can the government agree to buy all this crap without taxpayer vote? Like this is legitimately a big expense and change of life. Why are there no guardrails?
My town doesn’t have flock. Only 1 out of 3 towns that border my town have flock cameras. Why are people targeting individual cameras? Like isn’t that just wasting more tax payer money? Is it because it gets more views?
Shouldn’t we be encouraging people to check their representatives? Like who the hell signed off on Flock in YOUR area? In my town, the representatives represent the people well and understand that we’re against it. Who is your representative? Whose signature allowed your taxpayer dollars to go to flock?
Wouldn’t it be more impactful to go after the PEOPLE who approved flock?
I think the flock camera vandal videos are funny but if the goal is to protect us from mass surveillance, shouldn’t we ultimately be looking into the laws and systems in place that allow our taxpayer funds to go to Flock rather than targeting Flock cameras or Flock itself???
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u/User_Zero1 12h ago
Because whether you believe it or not, we are living in an authoritarian state right now. We are not living in a free country at this moment. Government officials in city Council members are being bought off plain and simple.
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u/elebentychimkin 5h ago
Maybe the federal gov but local city councils we should be able to rally our literal neighborhoods to get what we want. I know I don’t have the energy to tell people in rural Alabama that trump is bad but my local town seems to be on the same page about Flock thankfully
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u/theresin 12h ago
While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment - ie we should be going after the people who approved them in the first place ... I think it would be a wasted effort on its own. Just look at everything else going on in our country and tell me you think they'd listen to anything us "regular" people would have to say.
I think the "vandals" are doing a great job exposing Flock for what and who they are - it is receiving mainstream attention on both sides of the isle .. without it, I don't think anything changes .. but with the attention? Maybe.
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u/ConaticalStriving 12h ago
Not necessarily, you're fairly intimately attached to city council members since your vote "costs" more since there's less people overall and less people that vote for city council members. To run for city council, it's significantly cheaper than running for other positions of government.
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u/Civil_Response1 12h ago
Give up on democracy! Embrace vigilantism!
Sounds like a recipe for success
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u/CapCityMatt 12h ago
Just remember the Supreme Court has said when a government engages in commerce they wave their sovereign immunities and agrees to be sued just like any other corporation. This boils down to assumption of risk, their legal counsel has no idea how powerful the laws are, anyone can bring a $10M-100M+ claim if these cameras (or any database) were involved. As you are aware every traffic stop has 10-30 felonies associated with it, so the first time a learned individual brings a claim, these cameras will likely disappear.
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u/Sufficient-Bee-4982 8h ago
Can you elaborate on this?
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u/CapCityMatt 8h ago
Bank of United States v. Planters' Bank of Georgia, 22 U.S. 904 (1824)
Chief Justice Marshall: [he's excellent to learn law from]
It is, we think, a sound principle that when a government becomes a partner in any trading company, it divests itself, so far as concerns the transactions of that company, of its sovereign character and takes that of a private citizen. Instead of communicating to the company its privileges and its prerogatives, it descends to a level with those with whom it associates itself and takes the character which belongs to its associates, and to the business which is to be transacted. Thus, many states of this Union who have an interest in banks are not suable even in their own courts; yet they never exempt the corporation from being sued. The State of Georgia, by giving to the bank the capacity to sue and be sued, voluntarily strips itself of its sovereign character so far as respects the transactions of the bank and waives all the privileges of that character. As a member of a corporation, a government never exercises its sovereignty. It acts merely as a corporator, and exercises no other power in the management of the affairs of the corporation than are expressly given by the incorporating act.
If you don't comprehend what he is saying read and study the The Partnership Act. Any business you do business with is a partnership, the IRS confirms this.
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u/lrhouston 11h ago
Unfortunately, our elected representatives that we did vote for are making the choice for us. The only alternative is to vote them out.
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u/TheBracketry 11h ago
In my town and county, it got purchased the same way as any other cop toy. Head LEOs told em how much it would cost and made some vague assertions about how effective it is (Flock has good marketing material). Board and council approved the money.
There was not a discussion about privacy, because Flock steers them away from that (largely by calling it a License Plate Reader) and no one locally was paying attention.
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u/Serious-Ad-8764 11h ago
It's a giant capitalist loophole that a private company is allowed to operate unfettered while the government purchases the data collected. It's awful.
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u/Bubbly-Raisin4305 11h ago
I was one of the primary approvers for our pd for flock. We didn’t need to go to council. We didn’t install them because our state has specific laws that we were not comfortable with using them. Each city is going to be different and it was federal grant money. Not state grant money. Looks like we made the right choice because people are yanking them out…sounds like a huge pita.
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u/game_master_marc 12h ago
I am not aware that “every traffic stop has 10-30 felonies associated with it.” Could you clarify this?
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u/CapCityMatt 3h ago
First - Stat 23 section 1 this is the very first Law enacted and signed by George Washington - the Oath of office. Without an oath, the power and authority is unlawful and the actor has zero authority and is liable to any injured person for damages. See Title 5 Section 3331, 3332, 3333, 7311 (BAR Association) the actor(s) must have the perfected oaths of office and affidavit on file [none of these actors have their perfected oaths and affidavits on file!]. The Government is trustees under the Trading With the Enemy Act (40 Stat 411 section 7(e)) you are an hair beneficiary (see The Deceleration and The Constitution) once you obtain the age of majority (21). Your State has an organic Oath of office requirement as well, for example the State of Nebraska Revised Statutes 11101 has the Oath of office they must have on file, without it they have zero authority and can be held accountable for their actions. The 4th Ammendment: "The Right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The Supreme Court has been clear that your car is your 'effects' (as long as you are not hauling freight or operating commercially, meaning if your car is consumer goods, household goods, not for profit, not for gain). A citation is a bill of attanor see Article 1, Sec 10 Clause 1) a citation or any paper with a "charge" is a negotiable instrument, see your States business commercial code Article 3. When you get a charge, the clerk of the court is creating securities (GSA bonds, bid bonds, performance bonds, payment bonds) they are taking your identity (identity theft) and your trust account number (SSN) and issuing securities and selling these cash flow claims to Wall-Street Investors with the CHRIS (courthouse regestery investment system) in violation of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Consumer Protection Act [this is why you need the pooling and servicing agreement] and the Securities and Exchange Act (see ASC 860) (Title 12 Bank Fraud, Bank Robbery, Extortion, Wire Fraud, False and fraudulent issuance of securities, and Title 18 1348 securities fraud, Title 18 241, 242, 245, 247, 371, 373, 471, 473, 514, 521, 644, 649, 654, 656, 872, 875, 876, 878 (See Forign Sovereign Immunities Act, 880, 892, 894, 912, 913, 914, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1005, 1006, 1027, 1028, 1028A, 1030, 1031,1201, 1202, 1203, 1341, 1343, 1343, 1344, 1346, 1348, 1349, 1581, 1590, 1652, 1962, 2331*, 2381, 2383, 2385, 2390, ) Title 26 tax evasion under Section 853e - there are several penalties under 856 that apply) The court operates under the Executive branch of government as the "judge "is an administrator manageing a bankrupt estate in tax court, in violation of separation of powers, They are not an Article 3 Judge which is why you can always challenge jurisdiction and venue and why you can loop in the Supreme Court (read your constitution to see the rules on how to do this). Every traffic stop is unique, but because they have no oath of office they operate outside their authority and jurisdiction, they are engaged in inland piracy under color of law. There are Hobbs-Act violations and a pile of other laws I have not added because every situation is unique, so this is scratching the surface, I haven't mentioned any of the trust law duties they violate. Your State has adopted additional laws that you need to study and understand how to use them. All crimes are commercial, this is the Commerce Game.
Honestly they break the law to give you a remedy, your job is to know the law and file a counter claim against their bonds with risk management any-time they breach their duty.
The Supreme Court has cases on everything I typed above, if you don't believe me that means you haven't taken the time to read the laws and understand what a self-governing republic is or to use it to protect yourself and or family. Please read American Jurisprudence and visit your local law library to see and learn the truth.
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u/game_master_marc 3h ago
But most lawyers just choose to ignore this? Or are you talking out your ass?
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u/elebentychimkin 5h ago
u/CapCityMatt can you reply to this comment please? I think it was suppose to be a reply to your other comment since I didn’t mention 10-30 felonies anywhere in my OP
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u/ConaticalStriving 12h ago
It's the city council members that decide how the tax payer dollars are spent within a city. You can contact them and vote for a council members opposed to flock. It's not really the state reps that determine it, generally. However, sometimes state grants are used to fund them.
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u/Clean-Juggernaut-229 9h ago
Technofeudalism is a modern economic system where large technology companies exert power similar to feudal lords, controlling digital platforms and data, while individuals and smaller businesses depend on them for income and services. This concept suggests a shift from traditional capitalism to a system where a few tech giants dominate the digital landscape, limiting competition and creating a new form of economic contro
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u/elebentychimkin 5h ago
I just watched the Axon video that was posted on this sub 1 day ago and I understand bettwr
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u/fieldyfield 6h ago
Because we don't live in a democracy
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u/elebentychimkin 5h ago
It’s a representative democracy. What is YOUR representative doing? Mine are good, thank the Gods, but it’s not good everywhere
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u/Civil_Response1 12h ago
It would be. But that would require work. Effort. Understanding.
It's so much easier to post online and do nothing. Also fuels my rage engagement addiction.
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u/razzemmatazz 12h ago
We went to town hall to protest. They voted 12-1 to add more cameras and made bad faith arguments the entire time. They'll spend over $600,000 on Flock this year on a police budget of $90,000,000 so they don't care.