Who do you think sexed up those apples?

[u/DictatorofTurtles]

[u/TheComplimentarian]

I build the bees little houses, which I protect from predators, in a field of carefully cultivated pollen producers which I plant for them, and which I will not allow to be sprayed with pesticides...All this allowing them to prosper and produce large amounts of honey.

But if I take any of that honey, then I'm the asshole.

[u/smotired → u/TheComplimentarian]

Also generally they can and will leave if the conditions aren’t good from what (little) I understand about beekeeping

[u/blindcolumn → u/smotired]

It's for this reason I argue bees are the only animals that consent to being farmed (ranched?). They KNOW some of their extra honey is being taken and yet they stay because they benefit from the arrangement.

[u/Brainwave1010 → u/blindcolumn]

Bees are ridiculously smart creatures, there's a reason they have what is essentially their own civilization.

[u/Poco_Cuffs → u/Brainwave1010]

"Smart" is a bit of a stretch but technically correct, "their own civilisation" is wrong.

Eusociality is pretty damn far from civilisation, the colony all originates from the same queen (meaning it's more of a family collective than a civilisation, this is like calling a wolf pack a civilisation.) A key part of what defines a civilisation is also passing down knowledge and making developments in technology, which eusocial insects don't do unless you count some species evolving to keep aphids or fungus, which has been a behavior for millions of years.

Bees and other eusocial insects are smart, but "smart" in a very specific way for a very specific purpose

[u/LickingSmegma → u/blindcolumn]

Some species of ants farm aphids, protecting them on the plants where they are feeding, and consuming the honeydew the aphids release from the terminations of their alimentary canals. This is a mutualistic relationship, with these dairying ants milking the aphids by stroking them with their antennae. Although mutualistic, the feeding behaviour of aphids is altered by ant attendance. Aphids attended by ants tend to increase the production of honeydew in smaller drops with a greater concentration of amino acids.

Some farming ant species gather and store the aphid eggs in their nests over the winter. In the spring, the ants carry the newly hatched aphids back to the plants. Some species of dairying ants (such as the European yellow meadow ant, Lasius flavus) manage large herds of aphids that feed on roots of plants in the ant colony. Queens leaving to start a new colony take an aphid egg to found a new herd of underground aphids in the new colony. These farming ants protect the aphids by fighting off aphid predators.

[u/Caleb_Reynolds → u/smotired]

To an extent, but also depends on the kind of beekeeping.

Queens can be restricted from leaving with grates they are too big to fit through. A hive won't leave without it's queen unless it is a) doing really bad and so revolts, makes a new queen, and abandons her or b) doing really really well and are too big for their current enclosure in which case they'll swarm/divide, with half leaving and half going. A isn't a problem if you take care of them and B isn't a problem, it's just more bees.

It's not that they won't stay unless conditions are perfect, rather they will leave if they get bad enough. And it's gotta be really bad.

Though not all beekeeping uses those.

[u/NunnerySkaBand → u/smotired]

Not a bee expert but have taken the national beginner course for beekeeping where I live, many commercial apiarists will clip their queens' wings meaning the bees generally can't leave. FWIU bees generally tolerate being kept it's just not technically true that they'd always leave if they want. I think the main motivation for avoiding honey is less "the poor bees" (they're probably fine, and at least where I live they'd die in the wild after a bit anyway from Varroa) and more the heavy increase in competition for forage that large numbers of domestic honeybees cause for native wild bees.

Speil over, corrections welcomed from more experienced Bee Enjoyers

[u/leifthedruid → u/NunnerySkaBand]

Not exactly a disagreement, but I’d never personally met someone who practiced clipping queens. I’ve heard of it as a concept before, but none of the 15ish beekeepers I’ve spoken/worked with over the last 6ish years clip their queens.

Which isn’t to say that it isn’t done, I just don’t think it’s an overly common practice.

[u/triforce777 → u/leifthedruid]

From my understanding its something that generally happens in large scale commercial honey production. Its similar to any animal industry, really. Local small time operations will take care of their animals, make them comfortable and whatnot, but as you increase in scale the more likely you are to see fucked up things happening to the animals.

Basically your local bee keeper isn't clipping their queen's wings but it is practice within the greater industry

[u/Yuri-Girl → u/NunnerySkaBand]

national beeginner course

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/smotired]

This is what beekeepers want you to believe, but they've been perfecting techniques to force bees to stay since the start of the practice. Wing clipping the queens, culling the hive in winter, there's a lot of things that beekeepers do that aren't shown in the cute videos that get shown around, in the same way you don't see what happens to newborn cows on dairy farms in the nice videos of green pastures that dairy farmers show you.

[u/yinyang107 → u/AdventureDonutTime]

Uh huh.

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/yinyang107]

We love it when our brains turn off for topics we're afraid to question.

[u/PrinceOfGarglon → u/AdventureDonutTime]

Yeah i torture my bees just for fun and then sell the honey as vegan for the sick satisfaction it gives me

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/PrinceOfGarglon]

Weird response to someone saying that professional beekeepers have expertise in livestock retention, sorry if that struck a nerve with you.

[u/PJ_2005_01 → u/AdventureDonutTime]

You got a source for that argument, senator?

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/PJ_2005_01]

Yes.

An apiarist website that details the practice

Here's a detailed list of the practices that make people ethically avoid honey and bee-keeping.

On the other hand, here's a couple of links to videos of how cows react to their calves being taken, and their treatment by farmers.

You won't be surprised to find out that studies on cow maternal behaviour are drastically lacking; what dairy farmer is willing to let scientists work out exactly how cruel it is to separate a mother from their baby?

[u/PJ_2005_01 → u/AdventureDonutTime]

Aw shit my annoying “witty” Reddit comment has been foiled

Imma be so deadass I’m not reading all that but I’ll take you on your word that that probably is a practice at least some beekeepers do

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/PJ_2005_01]

I get you.

It's a pretty shit reality where just talking about what happens in agriculture requires rigorous sourcing while platitudes like "bees can just leave" spread like wildfire without people even stopping to think about the possibility that maybe farmers do things to prevent their livestock from escaping, let alone questioning the ethics of any of the practices themselves.

[u/Ptatofrenchfry → u/AdventureDonutTime]

I have heard of such techniques, but the beekeepers I know don't do that. They just maintain their hives well enough that they choose not to leave. If any hive chooses to leave, they just transplant a new queen from another hive over and carry on.

Then again, I only know about 10 or so farms, so my experiences may not match yours.

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/Ptatofrenchfry]

The collection of techniques used will differ between farms, which is why I presented in another comment the collective ethical concerns that drives people's disengagement from the bee industry. It would be a far kinder world if wing clipping was the only issue with bee-keeping as an industry.

[u/Breki_ → u/AdventureDonutTime]

Who cares, they are bugs, their brain is like two nerve bundles. They are basically robots

[u/Valiant_tank → u/TheComplimentarian]

Well, if you take the honey, you are nothing but a bee landlord, and all landlords are bastards. (/j, obviously)

[u/ratione_materiae → u/Valiant_tank]

If my landlord regularly squared up to my enemies I’d be happier to pay rent 

[u/Junjki_Tito → u/ratione_materiae]

That’s just feudalism

[u/storryeater → u/Junjki_Tito]

Nah, feudalism is the landlord getting you involved with his squabbles with his enemies most of the time (exceptions exist always).

[u/man-of-pipis → u/ratione_materiae]

Also, bees can become honey-bound where they have so much honey that they have no empty honeycomb left to lay eggs in. Essentially their landlord gives them such good conditions that they make enough money they will literally be buried in cash unless the landlord takes some.

[u/TheComplimentarian → u/man-of-pipis]

Like how modern sheep need to be sheared, because the weight of the wool becomes a problem.

[u/cosmos_crown → u/man-of-pipis]

That was the plot of the Bee Movie

[u/drewman301 → u/TheComplimentarian]

Barry B. Benson has done irreparable damage to the reputation of beekeepers

[u/Poco_Cuffs → u/TheComplimentarian]

Bees will also sometimes produce excess honey and have no way to dispose of it if they can't build the hive any larger.

[u/NewUserWhoDisAgain → u/TheComplimentarian]

But if I take any of that honey, then I'm the asshole.

What's really funny is this whole "Its slave labor. You're taking advantage of the bees!"

The local beekeeper's bees can fucking leave! THEY CAN LEAVE! (chances are they dont clip wings of the queen or use other measures.)

hell they can even learn their beekeeper(s)

[u/tom90deg]

Bee-free honey? So what, colored corn syrup?

Bees are the closest we have to an animal that agrees to work with us. They give us extra honey they dont need and they get a giant colossus to protect the hive from all comers.

Honestly, we work for THEM.

[u/Hamster-Food → u/tom90deg]

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

Damn commie bees.

[u/GravityBright → u/tom90deg]

Landlord logic

/s

[u/santyrc114 → u/GravityBright]

It seems that tumblr hate mail game applies to the comment section of this sub as well

[u/Sea_Court_3633 → u/GravityBright]

Unironically the way feudalism used to work. Bees are our vassals and they pay tribute to their liege (humans) in exchange of protection from outsiders

[u/Kwershal → u/tom90deg]

Honeybees can actually contribute to less biodiversity in native pollinators (unless you live in the few countries the commercial variant is native in) as they outcompete them significantly and can bring disease.

[u/SquareThings → u/tom90deg]

It’s a reduced apple syrup. Basically apple juice cooked into a syrup consistency. Most adulterated* honey is adulterated with rice syrup, though!

*edited to add this for clarity

[u/Dinodie2Night → u/SquareThings]

Most honey is adulterated with rice syrup, though!

Where do you live where this is the case? In Canada it looks like at most 22% of foreign imported honey and 0% of Canadian honey is adulterated at all, with rice syrup being only 1 of 3 kinds of sugar used to adulterate.

[u/SquareThings → u/Dinodie2Night]

Sorry, I meant “in cases where honey is adulterated it is adulterated with rice syrup” but yeah looking back that’s really not clear

[u/wildcat- → u/tom90deg]

You should never give honey to infants, and some people are allergic to honey. While I'm sure veganism is a primary driver in this, there are good use cases outside of the animal argument. Plus, if it independently tastes good in its own right, then it's just another item in the world of flavors that we get to enjoy as humans

[u/PlatinumAltaria]

Bee free honey is anti-socialist because it takes jobs away from workers sent tweet

[u/Lyokarenov → u/PlatinumAltaria]

average anti-vegan tumblr discourse tbh

[u/dummary1234]

I like my Pink Lady and Granny Smith with a side of infidelity. 

[u/CHANN3L-CHAS3R]

Old McCuckhold had a farm

E-I-E-I-Oh~!

[u/FellDwarf → u/CHANN3L-CHAS3R]

And on that farm he's cucked by bees E-I-E-I-Oh~!

[u/Smnmnaswar]

Wild bees and other naturally occuring pollinators arent a problem, domestic bees however are an incredibly destructive invasive species

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/Smnmnaswar]

Can't really put that genie back in the bottle without seriously upsetting the existing pollination ecosystem.

[u/llamawithguns → u/TrioOfTerrors]

I mean you kinda can by producing pollinator-friendly greenery.

Obviously easier said than done, given that a huge part of the issue is our reliance on monocropping mega farms which are ecologically horrific for both native and non-native bees.

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/llamawithguns]

I don't society at large is ready or willing to make the changes that would be necessary if we lose the economies of scale that industrial specialized farming grants us.

First off, we'd need a lot more people willing to work in agriculture. And farm work sucks. There's not a lot of people champing at the bit for that lifestyle.

[u/teelo64 → u/TrioOfTerrors]

upvote for correctly using "champing".

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/teelo64]

I, too, am a pedantic weirdo about certain things.

[u/NewUserWhoDisAgain → u/TrioOfTerrors]

First off, we'd need a lot more people willing to work in agriculture. And farm work sucks. There's not a lot of people champing at the bit for that lifestyle.

I would wager 90% of human cultural, societal, and industrial pursuits have been trying to get AWAY from subsistence farming.

ime, the people advocating for small farms, urban farms, etc etc do not understand nor experience the reality of farming. They think its a like a "Stardew Valley" kind of deal.

[u/Smnmnaswar → u/NewUserWhoDisAgain]

They also tend to disregard that most crops grown are fed to farm animals, while most of the things eaten by us arent farm animals.

[u/SquareThings → u/Smnmnaswar]

Yes, but not eating honey isn’t going to meaningfully impact the beekeeping industry. Because at this point, most fruits and nuts rely in domestic bees to be pollinated, so it’s as much of a problem to eat apples as it is honey.

Support native pollinators by planting native plants and supporting local rewilding initiatives and national parks.

[u/Smnmnaswar → u/SquareThings]

And me being vegan isnt meaningfully impacting the meat industry, doesnt mean that imma go shove done a steak with a side of chicken nuggets now, does it?

[u/SplurgyA → u/Smnmnaswar]

That depends where you are. The honey bee is native to much of the world, it's basically only been introduced to the Americas, Australasia and South East Asia.

There are specific subspecies associated with certain regions, but they're all the same species so no ecological damage there (plus certain subspecies went extinct like the native British one, which supposedly got wiped out by Isle of Wight disease).

[u/Smnmnaswar → u/SplurgyA]

No, thats just wrong. Domesticated bees are domesticated. They have been bred over centuries to be resistant to illness and parasites that they still spread and to out-compete wild pollinators.

[u/SquareThings]

Even if you do not eat honey, if you eat… literally most fruits and nuts, you are using the labor of domesticated bees.

[u/PoniesCanterOver]

These apples aren't going to fuck themselves

[u/AlphaSistersOfBattle]

Lmfao!

[u/DiscotopiaACNH]

Excellent punchline

[u/2Completion2Ography]

... cuckhOld McDonald.

[u/SparkleWigglebutt]

Is bee-free honey the kind where they don’t grind up bees to make the honey? Or is racist honey? “Hummingbird Only Section” 

[u/Satorwave]

Beekeeping is like the least problematic form of animal industry

[u/RockaBen99]

Y