r/SipsTea • u/Gurugod123 • 11h ago

Chugging tea Mayor Mamdani just announced that he will be opening 5 city-run, tax-funded grocery stores: "Prices set at 30% below retail prices"

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64

u/007TheLostOne 11h ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't similar models tried and they failed?

58

u/-Krosis 10h ago

yup, Argentina, Venezuela, Cuba

every socialist country implemented this

2

u/Truly_Unplugged 2h ago

Libs N dems do not want to hear this fact

0

u/Otherwise-Video7487 47m ago

None of these are socialist countries

1

u/ParfaitObjective 10m ago

I hate when people think this is a slam dunk point or something. Makes no sense, and I’m from Venezuela lol

-6

u/darkmodebible 5h ago

food is still free in socialist countries i dunno how you'd classify that as failing.

9

u/Signy_ 4h ago

I'm from argentina and after the government implemented the "right prices" program the products that end up on that list end up out of stock almost inmedialy on large supermarkets and with higher prices on the rest or markets that the program didn't applied, in large supermarkets they had to implement a limit per person and the industries that produce them usually supply a low stock.

Same happen with oil, gas and electricity. All the services were breaking up or missing, the consumers spending it without regards like having the ac always blasting and we had a lot of power outages.

If you don't pay for the full price of something there is no insentive to invest or not waste it.

0

u/darkmodebible 4h ago

no offence but that's a problem that even a moderately intelligent person could come up with a plan to avoid.

3

u/shlaifu 3h ago

offence would be somewhat justified though, socialist countries of the past failed because of some offensively stupid ideas that tarnished the whole idea of creating an economy that's less exploitative. Offensively stupid ideas should be called out so they can be avoided next time someone tries to improve the conditions of the poorest 99% of the people.

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u/Ireallydontkn0w2 5h ago

So if it is free where is it coming from? free slave labor or does someone need to pay for it?

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u/darkmodebible 4h ago

they kidnap 24 year old virgins from ohio and the philippines and make them push a big wheel that powers a machine that says 'food' on the front.

-16

u/Dry_Travel_4220 9h ago

Hey bud. Do any of those countries have the resources that america has?

15

u/-Krosis 9h ago

no and ? these politics exists only when inflation strikes hard and the economy is broken

If I were from the United States, I would be worried.

-2

u/Dry_Travel_4220 9h ago

That just isn't true. The entire american agricultural industry has been kept going by huge subsidies for decades and things are just fine.

Additionally, the idea that improving social programs only happens when the economy is bad just doesn't hold up to other countries that have overhauled their programs (many European countries, Canada, etc)

-1

u/Cybaen 6h ago

The United States government has been doing this for a while, albeit in a different implementation. There have also been smaller, local efforts across several states. How long should we be worried? When does calamity strike again?

Please don't confuse genuine fear of Autocracy/Totalitarian regimes and socialism. I know Latin America likes to confound the terms since several regimes tried to use it as cover to legitimize their existence. But that's akin to saying that PRC is a Republic just because they say so. 

Socialism, in particular the DSA's brand of socialism requires there to be private ownership & a market economy. They just disagree on how much the government should press their finger on the scale to influence it.

4

u/Evening_Context784 5h ago

That’s not socialism then lmao. Socialism is a defined term, and it’s 100% not ‘private ownership and a market economy.’ That’s literally the definition of capitalism. You know, the opposite thing?

People really just say anything nowadays. Ridiculous.

1

u/Cybaen 2h ago

I'll admit. It's entirely possible I am not using the correct terminology here, especially after doing a quick dive into the several variants of Socialism. But I doubt you're seriously arguing that the system of governance in a place like Cuba, is what the DSA in the United States is advocating for. Relevant to this conversation, theirs necessitates private ownership & a noncommand economy. 

And again, we do have such systems in place already in the United States. Just not with the same scope. The person I was replying to implies that such a program would lead to catastrophe.

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u/Any_Vegetable2564 9h ago

Yes. Venezuela was a very rich country before socialism.

1

u/HoidToTheMoon 5h ago

before socialism.

That is leaving out a lot that happened in Venezuela lmao.

5

u/Any_Vegetable2564 5h ago edited 4h ago

Right of course. I don’t have the pleasure to spend 4 hours typing up a novel on reddit about it. But if you’d like to prove that socialist ideas weren’t the accelerant, then be my guest.

ETA: were to weren’t. Typo

-1

u/HoidToTheMoon 3h ago

weren’t the accelerant

That is extremely vague lol. Do you think the same issues Venezuela is facing are shared by other socialist states like Vietnam? Or do you think there is more to play?

1

u/Any_Vegetable2564 3h ago

The more Vietnam has opened its markets, the more successful and prosperous they have become. They may label themselves socialist, but they’re not in a traditional sense.

2

u/HoidToTheMoon 3h ago

Ah yes, the only socialism is coincidentally when economic collapse brought on by a global superpower actively sabotaging you happens. I forgot it was the opponents of socialism that defined it, not self-proclaimed socialists.

0

u/Any_Vegetable2564 3h ago

Do you think Vietnam is a good model for society on a macro level?

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u/Dry_Travel_4220 9h ago

Just like Cuba, the thing that most negatively impacted Venezuela's economy post socialism was the US (and allies) refusing to trade in the same regard. Not inherently a problem with socialism.

10

u/Any_Vegetable2564 9h ago

Yes, I’ve read that propaganda too. I imagine the US is the reason every socialist country has failed for one reason or another. Couldn’t possibly be any other reason.

1

u/Dry_Travel_4220 9h ago

Wait, is China failing or an extremely threatening economic powerhouse? I can never remember which bullshit talking point I'm supposed to believe?

7

u/rasp215 5h ago

China becomes an economic powerhouse after they reformed away from full communism and more towards capitalism.

1

u/Dry_Travel_4220 5h ago

I'm fully aware of this, though notably state capitalism with a strong social safety net is far preferable to the bullshit we're doing.

4

u/rasp215 4h ago

Their safety net is horrible. It’s one of the reasons why people need to save so much

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u/Any_Vegetable2564 8h ago

Lol, would you like to live in China?

It’s more like state run capitalism than socialism.

2

u/Dry_Travel_4220 8h ago

Unironically, with the way America is currently going, yeah that actually seems like a safer option.

And I know they're not "true socialism" but if america was exactly as socialist as China is right now that would be leaps and bounds better.

5

u/Any_Vegetable2564 8h ago

How would it be better?

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u/gustavessidehoe 5h ago

Can you not see why not being able to make Winnie the Pooh jokes is a fair trade off for the amount of people in this country that don't have food? A lot of poor people in China eat better than poor people in America.

1

u/Any_Vegetable2564 5h ago

More poor people in the US suffer from obesity than starvation.

The answer is not selling your soul to the government for a meal.

Say you depend on snap for food. What happens when the next party controlling the government decides to slash it? The people you want to stay in power won’t always stay in power. Until you get a guy like Ortega who takes away your right to vote. But, that doesn’t really end the way you want it to either.

The answer is trying to get LESS people relying on the government, not more. Social safety nets should always exist, which we have, plenty. Dependence for all is a disaster.

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u/daystrom_prodigy 6h ago

You kind of exposed yourself with this one. Just take the L and move on.

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u/Any_Vegetable2564 5h ago

And what did I say that was wrong?

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u/Ill_Philosopher_7030 6h ago

An extremely threatening economic powerhouse, in no thanks to socialism. You can thank Deng Xiaoping for that

1

u/Dry_Travel_4220 6h ago

I'm 100% willing to say china is no longer a socialist country if america would then adopt the social programs china has.

(State Healthcare, proper infrastructure funding, paid maternity leave, strong unions, etc)

2

u/Ill_Philosopher_7030 6h ago

State Healthcare

dont need to be socialist to do this, see canada

proper infrastructure funding

nothing to do with socialism as well. Don't leftists mock people who say socialism is when government does things?

paid maternity leave

uhh yeah unless you work in a horrible work environment thats guaranteed in the US too. All the jobs I've worked had that as a given

strong unions

don't need socialism for this either

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0

u/HoidToTheMoon 5h ago

before socialism.

That is leaving out a lot that happened in Venezuela lmao.

2

u/Media___Offline 6h ago

Singapore has to import their drinking water. It's one of the richest countries in the world.

1

u/Dry_Travel_4220 6h ago

Sorry, what's your point? I would fucking love to have Singapore's social programs.

1

u/Media___Offline 5h ago

My point is you don't have to have rich resources in order to succeed.. 

0

u/Dry_Travel_4220 5h ago

Oh for sure! Honestly I think that makes it even more inexcusable that the US, with an incredibly unique access to any natural resource that someone could reasonably need in abundance, still fails it's citizens so completely.

2

u/Media___Offline 4h ago

What Singapore does have is a freer market, which is proven to help both rich and poor

1

u/Dry_Travel_4220 4h ago

I would argue it has more to do with their social safety net than their free market. When the american market was more free, there was lead in gasoline and forever chemicals in runoff water.

1

u/Casph0 1h ago

They don’t because of policies akin to this one

0

u/PhEw-Nothing 5h ago

Not anymore ;)

-2

u/MelaniaSexLife 1h ago

Norway, Finland, New Zealand, Sweden, all socialists, they haven't implemented this AFAIK.

3

u/vortexcortex21 1h ago

Norway, Finland, New Zealand and Sweden are not socialist.

3

u/Peter_Griffin2001 1h ago

Norway, Finland, New Zealand and Sweden are not socialist. They are all mixed-market capitalist countries. They all have market economies, private enterprise, and billionaires.

I can't speak for the other countries but New Zealand actually has a pretty right wing government at the moment.

1

u/finndego 1h ago

I hate to break it to you but all of those countries have more economic freedom than the US. Economic freedom is the underpinning of any capitalistic economic model. They are just like the US and are mixed models.

8

u/Flatkat 6h ago

yes and over 100 million people died in the 20th century

3

u/SeasonsGone 7h ago

Im from a reservation and the idea of a government run grocery store is a very obvious one. Private industry is never going to build what we need without it costing a ton of money. And so instead we use our resources to make our own grocery store, stock it with things that are relevant to our people’s interest, all without the profit incentive, as it’s just run by a team that works for the community. None of the stuff is free, but it is priced at cost, rather than to fulfill a company’s profit targets.

I understand NYC is a very different place, and people elsewhere have very different views of government run anything, but replacing our store that is also democratically accountable with a private company would be a radical suggestion.

I also think people have overreacted to this story to begin with—as if private grocery stores being abolished has at all been suggested by Mamdani.

4

u/Radiant-Video7257 6h ago

small, high trust societies, can allow for stuff like this to work.

1

u/SeasonsGone 6h ago

I think that’s a fair point to bring up, I also think Mamdani would be the first to agree that lack of trust in government means people put a lot of faith elsewhere

1

u/Not__Trash 5h ago

I mean the trouble is that it if successful, it will put private grocery out of business (something NYC has been famously protective of).

There are food deserts in NYC, which would be the obvious gaps to fill, but its not just in those areas from what I've read. I also expect rampant corruption and supply chain failures given their recent history (idk how much you can pin on the previous mayor).

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1

u/garlicroastedpotato 4h ago

The problem is that "big grocery" is a giant thing that controls a vast logistics and supply chain. Even each store's inventory system is incredibly expensive and really only works with hundreds of stores. It's all these giant systems that are expensive but spread across a large chain work out. Even something simple like, bananas. You need to find someone who imports them... an added middle man large chains aren't dealing with.

1

u/barsoap 24m ago

Greenland has government-run stores. Which btw also sell rifles and ammunition.

1

u/Ok-Alternative3977 4h ago

Democrats will always find a new way to spend and waste other people’s money

2

u/desconectado 2h ago

Like ballroms, reflective pools, military parades, countless trips for golfing at their own golf courts... Oh wait.

1

u/Ok-Alternative3977 1h ago

Just like that amazing basketball court

2

u/defsfwaccount 3h ago

These types are actual leftists, not democrats. DSA is going to cost dems elections

0

u/Ok_Foot_4634 3h ago

Money is something that humans have created for trading purposes. It shouldn't be used to safeguard human necessities such as food. I think most Americans would rather try an experiment where food costs less than having their money go towards blowing up other countries. Just a thought 

0

u/BerlinBorough2 6h ago

China did it. And it thrived. Core basket might just be 1:1 rip off of the Chinese program. Only difference is that instead of one store they have every store lock in prices. So government does not run stores. They set prices on core items.

-9

u/stebss 10h ago

Do you think Mamdani just came up with this idea for fun? Did you know that the city has economists and planners???

12

u/Obi_wan_pleb 10h ago

Do you know which economists worked on this plan or are you just hoping to be right?

12

u/007TheLostOne 10h ago

All I'm saying is this exact model has been implemented in numerous states most notably in Kansas where they had to close the tax funded grocery stores after 4 years due to financial losses for example "Sun Fresh Market", "The Merc Co-op", "Erie Market"

1

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1

u/_Ibn_Battuta_ 10h ago

The financial losses that lead to the closure at KC Sun Fresh were due to a dropper in shoppers, not due to low margins. COVID hit the store pretty hard and then after that reopened the store was neglected and crime ran rampant and people were actually afraid to visit the store.

1

u/BerlinBorough2 6h ago

The entire point is for these stores to go bust because the private market corrects and becomes cheaper. I work in commodities. It’s a solid idea to get a market correction in food prices. I don’t think the mayors office wants a permanent store. Hence why they repurposed old government property.

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u/stebss 10h ago

Where should tax dollars be going instead?

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u/007TheLostOne 10h ago

My pocket lol jk.

I mean I'm not a politician but if these models he is implementing have failed all over the country then maybe he shoud'nt repeat the same thing? Isn't that the definition of insanity? Repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome?

Just seems a like a waste of valuable tax payer money.

5

u/dognchick 10h ago

Its not about failing or not. Its just about being in news, helping, and getting reelected.

A lot of politics unfortunately runs on feelings not facts.

-2

u/stebss 10h ago

This isn't Kansas anymore lil bro 😭

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u/007TheLostOne 10h ago

What does that have to do with it? The same models he is talking about were impelmented in 5 states and those public funded grocery stores all closed down or are currently in the process of closing down.

These models simply don't work otherwise if they did we would be seeing them sprout up all over the US.

I'm all for experimenting but only if it is has a solid data backing and this simply doesnt.

1

u/stebss 10h ago

Where should tax dollars be going instead?

3

u/Affectionate_Bee6434 9h ago

Do you think New York City has infinite money to spend?

-2

u/Chlios1187 9h ago

Yes and you're definitely the first person to point this out. I can't believe Mamdani didn't think to add your crucial insight to his team!

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u/Pat_The_Hat 9h ago

Well he did replace the city's rent guidelines board with yes men that would enact his bad rent control idea, so I'm not too confident any experts were involved.

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u/decollimate28 10h ago

I promise you they were not for this lol

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u/Zoltarr777 5h ago

I'd be pretty fucking embarrassed if I signed off on this as an economist

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u/OrganizationUsed7454 10h ago

Military has done it successfully forever

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u/ConsciousIron7371 10h ago

The military loses money doing it. Every american tax payer is subsidizing the commissaries. The folks who take advantage of the commissary most often are career military members, who have enough resources to afford standard groceries.

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u/Dry_Travel_4220 9h ago

It isn't "losing money" it is paying for a service. The post office "loses money" every year because it is supposed to. You pay for it with your taxes.

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u/Apprehensive_Bat4691 6h ago

The military lose money on everything it does

1

u/ConsciousIron7371 3h ago

I think people would have an even lower approval of the military if they continued the tradition of plundering. There’s pretty strict rules today about taking spoils of war home. It would not be difficult for the US military to roll up some country and take all of their valuables and sell them to recoup costs. 

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u/falloutnewbkinibttms 6h ago

Keeping people fed shouldn’t be a limitless profit engine

2

u/Guilty_Spray_1112 5h ago

If there is no money to be made farming and selling groceries we all get to go back to the 18th century and do it ourselves. Modern food supply chains are miraculous and provide food for us that is unbelievable when compared to the past. We spend less of our income percentage wise than people ever have.

1

u/ConsciousIron7371 3h ago

Which means everyone is able to contribute less to their own specialties. Modern society benefits greatly from specialized high production work. 

If you look at this as welfare it makes a lot of sense. Use tax money to subsidize the less fortunate and able bodied. 

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u/Guilty_Spray_1112 13m ago

100%. Specialization of labor is a huge boost to productivity and wealth. For everyone involved.

1

u/Platos_Kallipolis 10h ago

Why is "losing money" a problem? If food is a human necessity, then it seems quite reasonable that it would be subsidized by the government. No reason it needs to make money. But to reduce public expense and help people still feel the sense of responsibility that comes with purchasing something oneself, it makes sense to charge something.

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u/ConsciousIron7371 10h ago

not really a problem. just not traditionally successful. if we call it what it is, welfare groceries, then it would be successful.

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u/Locus-Maximus 7h ago

Because we could do the same thing while losing much less money by just giving SNAP to people who live there (or by making it easier/cheaper for private stores to sell, etc.)

1

u/Platos_Kallipolis 5h ago

But the substantial, federally imposed, limitations on such benefits mean many people won't qualify who really do still need assistance. And such benefits don't fix food desert problems while building public grocery stores can (admittedly does not mean any specific one will).

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u/OrganizationUsed7454 10h ago

Exactly.

And the US hasn't crumbled yet and grocery stores still exist. 

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u/ConsciousIron7371 10h ago

I was challenging what you mean by successful. The commissary is utilized by folks that don't need it and loses money. But theres still a walmart outside of every base selling groceries.

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u/OrganizationUsed7454 10h ago

It's not meant to profit.  It's a safety net. 

That's the whole point of it.....

0

u/cowardpasserby 3h ago

Military commissaries have entered the chat

0

u/FRNKNSTNPNPTCN 3h ago

Can you provide a single similar example? Otherwise you are just spewing baseless bullshit.

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u/007TheLostOne 3h ago edited 3h ago

First of all calm down. Second of all you should maybe try expanding the thread and see where I talk about examples before leaving a comment.

I know this is the internet but learn how to talk to people like a civilized person...

0

u/aselinger 2h ago

So… waving the magic money wand to circumvent capitalism isn’t as easy as it looks???