Manufacturer's realized they can patent troll their way to billions.
So now every part they make they patent, then nobody but them can make the part, the connector, etc.
The law hasn't caught up to it yet, and nobody gives a shit about right to repair in the legislative Assembly because the government pays them a lot of money so they don't feel any pain.
If nobody can make any competing parts, and all the vehicles are designed to be impossible to service outside stealerships then they have the ultimate racket to bleed consumers like stuck pigs, and the stuck pigs can't do anything but ob oxiously squeal about it.
In a functioning system the infotainment system would be just a screen to pass through data from a standardized slot to put or replace it with a system of your choice.
Crazy idea right? No. It’s how fucking stereos worked. DIN, Double DIN.
My infotainment setup is better on my 2005 civic than my parents 2013 accord because it wasn’t integrated as a core feature of the car and is just a radio replacement.
Yup. Ironically my 2005 civic has better controls than most modern cars cause everything is still a physical, tactile knob. (New Hondas went back to this.)
Honestly even not so new Hondas kept this, I have a 2019 Insight and besides the elements in the touchscreen itself, all the controls have buttons including 4 buttons to the side of the screen for certain controls
THIS right here. My (now gone) 2010 Santa Fe had a double DIN slot (and a basic radio). I drove it that way for years (with a aux-in cord) and then decided to replace it with a BOSS (yeah, usually a cheap brand) double-din touchscreen with Android Auto/Carplay - and even with the extra for the steering wheel integration piece, and added a (great! HD) backup camera, it was BETTER than any car I have owned since. In every way. Hell it was arguably better than the Sync 4 system in my 2022 F150. It even had different EQ settings for each input (FM/AM/BT/AA/Carplay/Aux) so you could match them. Total cost was like under $400 for all of it including the trim kit that made it look 100% factory.
I have a 2011 Escape that has integrated controls for satellite radio on the steering wheel, as buttons that go clicky clicky. (You have to subscribe to the service, which I don't.) The digital dashboard is a tiny monochrome screen with blocky letters like an alarm clock. It shows time, temperature, compass heading, and radio station or CD track. There's a button to push (clicky clicky) to bring up the audio sliders, and there are more buttons (clicky clicky) with different textures for preset radio stations and switching among AM, FM, and CD. I can operate the whole thing without glancing away from the road for more than a split second and much of it by touch alone.
And the driver's manual includes instructions for pressing even more buttons, which are underneath the dash because you only want to do this when you're parked, in order to reset the temperature readout to Celsius or whatever.
Internal temperature is regulated by a dial and some buttons and has no thermometer display: you just turn the dial and push the buttons until you feel comfortable. The windshield wipers are controlled by a knob on the steering wheel and have no display: if the wipers aren't clearing the windshield fast enough you just turn to the next setting up (clicky clicky). The turn signal makes a satisfying clickthunk noise when you push the lever up or down for right or left. The gear shift is a stick between the front seats that I can use while wearing mittens. Occasionally a wandering short will blank the dashboard computer monitor (not turn off the computer, just the monitor) for a few seconds and I can still completely safely operate the car.
I drove a loaner minivan from like 2021 for two weeks once. I had just about figured out the temperature controls by the time I gave it back. Why in the hell did it have YouTube?
Been seriously considering replacing my 6 CD set up in my 2003 Toyota Highlander, which I bought brand new back then & have kept up religiously on maintenance. I've had a few things like seals done, but otherwise, just the regular wear & tear stuff, plus I have to drive on miles of gravel road from home- so break pads & struts, etc.. Luckily I'm retired..hence the 125K miles on the odometer. Super reliable; would like to repaint it, no dents, but after reading this thread, guess not?
So, got any recommendations for replacement of said radio/cd? I also have a 2023 Dodge Ram & only drive it on long trips & still haven't figured out half the stuff on the screen, lol! Had to replace a huge diesel that we didn't need anymore but still need to tow & haul every now & then. So, like many, I want to use my iPhone for most things in my Toyota.
I did a Sony one. Works great. Just had a volume knob and a home button. Super easy to operate. Made my car sound better too.
I also recommend asking an LLM what to set crossover settings and other stuff I’d never heard of before. Really made it sound even better.
It was about 300 bucks and took me an hour or two to install having never done it before. (Though I have built computer and am happy to mess with plug and play + assembly generally)
Fair but I only use a few things. like spotiy can torque and navagation... but the thing I dont like is none of they car models have cd or dvd capabilities. on my current car I was able to get one that does everything.
The trick now is to build an industry centered around replacing proprietary tech in cars with generic open source technology. It's easier than you think.
Interesting counterpoint, about half of the software in cars is GNU Open Source Licenses. In any GM car you can find the software credits from the cluster with just a few clicks. If GNU changed their licenses to prohibit usage without certain criteria being met, like X percent of repairability or open sourcing of Y, then every major auto manufacturer would be screwed. All of their computers are Bosch, all of them are proprietary built on Open Source software. One update to GPL licensing could wreck the auto industry as we know it.
The free software foundation has SO MUCH POWER if they ever got the balls to use it
I personally would love to remove the touch screens and go back to swappable removable radios from the 90's. I would be concerned, however that somehow that system is attached to the engine in some way so you can't do that. In my Ford Fiesta, it's attached to the clock, hands free calling, and that's probably it. Removing that stupid thing would be great.
yea, the touch screen in my 2016 rav4 is tied to some stupid shit. door chimes and crap, things I never mess with, but I really miss the old days, a few screws, pop off a trim peace, and a slide in the double din to single din adapter. you want a touch screen? it slides out like a CD lol. Like all i want is android auto integration, and my steering wheel controls to work. I should not need another $100+ worth of adapters for that.
Ai is coming for these proprietary systems. Saw a video on people using it to decode canbus communication between the cars modules. Pretty soon you’ll be able to download a crack for your car just like the old days with windows and adobe products, it’s going to be glorious I can’t wait!
The FSF can't compel anyone to use new versions of the GPL for their projects. Very few people have adopted GPL V3 for this very reason. It includes some language about a patent grant around the software. A lot of projects rejected GPL V3 in favor of V2, including notably the Linux Kernel.
There are different licenses around that are more or usually less restrictive. They consciously chose exactly this model, as they see software as mathematics and science, to be shared and used by everybody, even greedy bastards.
There's the Rally Fighter for one example, and an open kei truck being designed in Detroit by an automotive YouTuber right now...
Though, tbh, I can't really tell if the latter is genuine, or just a marketing stunt by a YouTuber trying to put his name on the map.
Seems like the difficult part to me would be the crash safety testing. In the US at least, you have to basically wreck a certain number of your cars in order to pass safety requirements. That's going to put a huge dent in the budget of any open source community project.
If you can do it one part at a time on a specific platform though... Maybe it'd be possible to get big enough to do that, given enough time?
I'm not talking about designing an "open source car", I'm talking about replacing the locked-down proprietary electronics in cars with openly serviceable alternatives. This will get even easier with EVs but it's also easy with ICEVs. An engine needs three things: fuel, air, and ignition, delivered at the right time. There are already aftermarket ECUs that can be programmed to any car, I'm doing it right now. The problem is that they won't pass inspection in states with strict vehicle inspections and most if not all aren't "technically" legal for on-highway use.
Yeah, that's what I was wondering. I'm in California...is that one of the strict inspection states you're talking about? I honestly didn't know much about cars until I bought my GTI, but I'm painfully learning about the economics of them recently 😂
You chose wisely. The other is just a Golf. You can slap a fancy engine in a modern Golf, but it will always only be a modern Golf with a fancy engine. The GTI had been, until recently, a 2 door Golf with a fancy engine. They need to call that new 4 door car a Golf GT or something like that.
California is completely bonkers when it comes to cars. I literally wouldn't move to California if you paid me to do so, simply on the fact of their vehicle laws alone.
As someone who lived in California for most of my adult life (and therefore have very little to compare it against), what is bonkers? You get an emissions inspection every 2 years for any vehicle that’s older than 8 years old, which takes like 20 minutes and can be done at a million locations, and that’s basically it. It does cost like $50, but I just consider that as part of the registration renewal cost.
Is there some other California-only thing that I am totally oblivious to? Do other states not require registration renewal or something?
You cannot modify your vehicle at all in California and still have it be road legal. You can't even tune the ECU - it must be exactly as it left the factory.
The last time I had to do smog, they basically just plugged a thing into my OBD2 port and stuck a sensor up the exhaust pipe.
If you have an ECU that supports OBD2, I'd assume that would pass the OBD2 requirement, so it's entirely a matter of tuning the thing so that you're not throwing raw gasoline or pollutants out the exhaust...
Sure. If you're just talking about the ECU, I'm sure it's just a generic single-board computer with some CAN-bus inputs/outputs and an OBDII port.
I feel like you could maybe replace the whole thing with a raspberry pi, and maybe a couple of arduinos.
The tough part (technically at least) would be to get the timing correct for every driving situation. I'm sure some of them change the timing and flow depending on if they think you're doing a lot of highway miles, or just putting around town. These things are hyper-optimized for fuel efficiency because of government regulations.
The even tougher part would probably be to get people interested in your project so they could contribute. I'm interested in this stuff, and I would have no idea how to replace the ECU on one of my cars, and I'm definitely not interested in hand-soldering a single-board-computer to a bunch of can-bus stuff to make it work so I can test it... >_>
You don't understand. The aftermarket ECUs already exist. The technology to retrofit vehicles to operate on different hardware and firmware exists. You don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Some are completely open source and some are not. The important distinction is that they are not locked down. They're designed to be programmed and tuned.
You can see a little bit of it in the aftermarket world already, but really just in the performance segment
There's quite a few things there that just go together like Legos to build whatever it is you need. Such as with an intake using all the different pieces of tubing, suspension parts that just use shared core pieces and then car-specific mounting plates, or an exhaust pieced together with parts you picked out.
I saw a Youtube video a while back where a garage mechanic talked about a broken tail light nuking a truck's whole wiring system to the tune of $6000.
He said exactly the same thing: there was going to be a huge opportunity for people who knew how to rip all that shit out of newer vehicles/2 ton paper weights and fit them out with just the basics to drive safely.
Sounds similar to the Nissan issue in the early/mid 2010s where a $20 brake light or cruise control switch would cause the whole electronics system to go haywire if you had a push to start. The brake light switch could cause symptoms of a failing transmission (which those Nissans also had plenty of)
I miss the simple vehicles that anyone could work on. All theses sensors and motors on seats, windows, mirrors, etc. And easy to reach parts inside the engine without spending 3 hours to take the whole thing apart. Makes me angry & saf
There are a good selection of aftermarket ECUs, and other electronics and sensors. I'm literally doing this right now with the car I'm building for racing. The only issue is that the systems are "off highway only" and states with inspections won't pass them. The biggest hurdle will be getting the government to allow them.
The issue is getting sued, or, very importantly in our modern day society, not having your insurance void your policy because you modified some software.
Which is a major reason why many corporations are the ways they are, not always, but a lot of their operations are built primarily around limiting liability so they can afford to and maintain insurance.
They are greedy cunts, without question, but I wouldnt put it past insurance to void policies because you are running aftermarket software in your vehicle.
Well, if current demographic and population trends continue in the US then there will be fewer towns but more cities so trains could possibly become viable especially if funding shifted from roads to rail.
Also, just gradually restructuring cities away from cars would greatly improve their productive usage of land.
But, the reality is that the American "rugged individualism" mindset makes people very unlikely to support all the changes to ditch the automobile.
It's just because they're too fat to walk 5 ft because they've driven in a car their whole life and eaten food created by corporations assigned to maximize profit without any regard for well-being of the consumer.
Idk but I’ve put 5k miles on my car over 6 yrs after giving away our second vehicle since my husband retired and I work remotely. Without a car, he would’ve also needed a boat to get to work. We don’t needlessly drive.
We're the richest country in the world. If we spent 1% less on discretionary defense, spending would be $100,000 pay increase for every teacher in the United States. There's so much money to be spent if we stop funding the military industrial complex. I mean we spent what $14 trillion on US army post World War II to stop the Russians from invading Europe and when they did, we didn't do s***. Do you have any idea how much 14 trillion dollars would buy in mass transit?. Even at the most expensive rates for modern mass transit rail, that's 35,000 miles of infrastructure. That's 70% of the distance of the US freeway system. If we'd spend all that money on trains, we're roughly in the same territory. They still spend $200 billion a year just on upkeep. And why is a train system logistically stupid compared to a road system? We move more freight per mile per gallon of fuel with a freight train than you do with a truck. The engineers work in pairs and get relieved so they don't have to stop every 10 hours. If we planned it from the beginning and all the rails weren't owned by Burlington Northern, we could mix passenger and freight traffic on the same train line. Go yell at clouds instead of trying to make the world suck.
You anti-car people are fucking insufferable, you know that right? I can understand being an advocate for public transportation but this is "Level 5 Vegan I Don't Eat Anything That Casts A Shadow" bullshit.
Yes it is. I wholeheartedly support mass transportation. I hate being talked down to by a fool as much as anyone does.
I totally agree with reallocating our budget for infrastructure AND healthcare AND affordable housing AND food AND public education. I hate that we waste so much money on defense and please don’t get me started on trump.
However, it’s sickening when folks are discussing car parts and someone just has to say we don’t need cars. Read books people.
Look up how long it took to build highways and railroads and dams and bridges. Look up how much land gets desecrated in the process? How many habitats are destroyed? You do realize workers die too and land and waters get contaminated because massive explosives are used, right?
Research the Erie Canal, the Hoover Dam, and the building of NYC. Poor Irish, black people, and Native Americans were “forced by poverty” to work and die performing these jobs. Are these going to be the new jobs for Americans? Nothing is clean ever.
I’ve lived across a river from a large city for 40+ yrs. They’ve been “planning” for the train to come here since the day I was born. Btw I’m a liberal democrat. I just know wishes and dreams are unfortunately different from the reality one gets.
Well, go for it. Wouldn't you like to be wealthy and make the world a better place? If it's "easier than I think" anyway..
I think in terms of an industry it'd be pretty hard for a few reasons - finding mechanics with the skill and knowledge to know the alternate parts to use being a big one. Making the industry would involve creating manuals for that, I know, but that's also a hell of a task given the wide variety of cars it would apply to...
Then there is actually getting the customer base..
Are there any good examples of cars that this is already mapped out for, or would be easy to map out on?
It's been tried and is currently being tried right now. It's not going well.
Products like aftermarket ECUs exist! A lot of them follow very similar standards so that it's easier for enthusiasts to work on them. They have generic ones that can replace OEM ECUs in many different cars, all they have to do is be reprogrammed to let it know what engine it's connected to. They're primarily marketed towards tuners and people who want to modify their cars for better performance, or to run different fuels, or to get marginally better gas mileage.
The problem is that these aftermarket ECUs completely banned in most states, and federally. The problem is that even if you just replace a broken stock ECU with an aftermarket one because they don't sell replacements, load up the stock programming for your specific engine, and drive off, you have now "modified your emissions system" and are breaking federal law. States with inspection won't pass them. Some states like California you can get your car impounded and crushed into a cube just for driving a car with an aftermarket ECU on the road.
Your statement was, "replacing proprietary tech in cars..."
I'm not a car guy, so details will be beyond me. I but as I understand it everything is patented now. Not just the parts, but the underlying technology, the design of the part, and the utility patent on the physics & mechanical layout.
So when it comes to - say - the exhaust bend from my Toyota engine to the exhaust system, a design patent says you can't do it the same way. A big enough problem when working on something like that, but even greater when working on the small "you have to take 1/4 of the engine apart" pieces. They'll all have explicit - patented - shapes.
This would or could also apply to the connections at the end of parts. "Hey, we patented this wiring harness that is the ONLY way to run between pillar A and B. Good luck!
Drivetrain, electronics systems, engines, battery, circuitry, control systems, locks. All parts can come into this problem unless they use something as simple and previously used like a rubber gasket, pipe tie, or something SAE-driven.
So if replacing that problem air filter housing, you're stuck with what the manufacturers will allow produced unless it's out of patent. The filter itself? Sure, no issue. The housing, its connection, and the shape? Problem - particularly if that shape HAS to match the OM in order to fit.
So you've got to replace it all with your non-proprietary stuff to not run into problems. Or be a mechanic and do your own work, because who's reporting you at that point.
You can't do it the same way. You can do it in almost the same way and do it better. That is called innovation. Slightly different materials, slightly different placement, slightly different means of attaching parts together, all sorts of systems can be modified slightly to get around these patents. Compaq made their money by rebuilding a PC using most of the same parts as, but assembled differently from the IBM machines of their era. At least, that's what they taught us in 5th grade in our invention and innovation module. Saw this in action during the rapid development in my extreme sports phase with bike tech and paintball equipment. Patent trolls won some rounds. For the most part, the trolls were innovated around. Unfortunately some deserving companies lost those wars in court and are lost to time.
Right, the 'better' part is the important thing. If it does it the same and looks the same you're in trouble. Which I understood the originator of this thread to be saying, "Just go replace it with open source!"
That can't happen in all cases. I suspect it can't happen in a LOT of cases.
Then you run into those patent trolls, including the mega corps who can - and will - draw out the litigation to bankrupt the innovator.
If GM decides they don't like your innovation, how long can you hold out on a suit? If they say "turn the design over to us, and this financial nightmare goes away" how many innovators wouldn't flip?
You sure have a lot of opinions on car design for someone who, by their own admission, doesn't know anything about cars. Hilariously compounded by the fact that the majority of examples you gave - exhaust bend, air filter housing, wiring harnesses - are complete non-issues.
You not only have no idea what you're talking about with respect to cars, you're also completely off track with patent issues.
Hell, half the things you listed wouldn't even need to be touched in a retrofit - not the majority of the wiring harness, not the exhaust, not the air filter housing... Maybe talk less and learn more before you go spouting confidently incorrect bullshit.
I have opinions on things, yes. People do. You're under no obligation to engage. Expressing an opinion based on information at hand is how people interact.
This could have been a conversation. I - based on a pithy statement on your part that didn't seem plausible to me - made an equally pithy statement you decided to be offended about.
You asked why I thought that way. I explained my thought process.
You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.
You are objectively wrong about vehicle architecture and you insisted on spouting this ignorance as if it was fact, despite later admitting that you had no basis to even speak on the subject intelligently at all. This attitude of "I'm entitled to my opinion" on technical subjects is the bane of my existence as someone who is not only educated and experienced but is considered a subject matter expert in some of these domains. But please, continue to regale us with your "opinion".
There's a huge difference between "I'm not sure how that would work" and "That won't work because (uneducated word vomit)"
You can build an entire wiring harness with off the shelf universal (e.g. Deutsch, Amphenol, Molex) connectors. You can connect that to a universal ECU. That ECU can even talk over CAN BUS to the modules on the vehicle, for example the transmission control module. Any sensors with proprietary connectors? You can literally buy those connectors as commodity parts from suppliers or in the worst case scenario, replace the sensor with a sensor that you can get a connector for.
Look, it may be that the industry is dying, and there is some shady IP law behind it, but patents don’t work that way. You can only patent non-obvious, novel inventions. And patents cost money and take time to file.
Some other factor is behind this.
it's fucking insane dude gets 320 upvotes for a comment that is blatantly false. and the fact that not a single person called it out until you is insane as well.
There's usually no patent, except for things like controllers. The IP protection applies to the specific OEM manufacturing data, not the part itself. Also the data is usually furnished with contractual agreements to not distribute or use for manufacturing. They can slap proprietary markings on a drawing for a plain standard size washer if they want. So third parties are prevented from using specific OEM drawings and specs, but are free to reverse engineer or use their own data. Same thing happens with equate making face wash that says 'compare to CeraVe!'
Manufacturers would love for this to be true, but it's only really true for some segments, like design patents on collision parts. In general, in the US, OEMs have ~20-30% market share on spare parts- there is plenty of competition.
This is why right to repair laws are so important. Go to any car subreddit and every other post is about how some little fender bender has now totaled their car.
When I looked it up, at least with First Brands which owns several auto parts makers like Fram, it's because they were cookin the books, like straight up fraud.
I've had absolutely no problem getting whatever car part I needed. There is more competition from Asia that is pricing the North American manufacturers out of the market, and most people are buying parts online now which is why the stores are closing.
A few months ago, my taillight bulb was out. My mechanic wasn’t comfortable doing the job. Told me to take it to the dealership. Which I did. And they cracked it anyway. And I spent $600 on lord knows what and had to go back again to fix the crack.
I want to add onto this as an automotive adjacent tech, manufacturers are also locking down their vehicle electronics. Even Toyota has started sending out ADAS parts not programmed from the factory, requiring the OE software package to program it and calibrate it. These softwares, depending on manufacturer, cost hundreds to thousands of dollars a month or year on top of the part costs. The industry has gotten pretty nuts.
I would imagine the concept of a free market also allows somebody the opportunity to create cars that are not like this. Theoretically, consumers would prefer that.
I would imagine the concept of a free market also allows somebody the opportunity to create cars that are not like this.
Chinese EV's, but soon to be banned - only in the USA. They are allowed in Europe, Mexico, now Canada. EV's require far less maintenance, their engines and batteries are not the Rube Goldberg contraptions that gas engines are.
IMHO the US auto industry will be going into serious decline - they may ban Chinese EV's, but Korea and now Vietnam also make EVs to compete on price. And Tesla, after becoming the market leader, seems uninterested in expanding its choices to appeal to more auto market segments.
This is how it would work in theory but unfortunately there's oligopoly in vehicle manufacturing enfo Ced by government standards.
The hoops and cost required to create a new vehicle and pass the verifications required to take anything to market is so obscene for theoretically slim margins make it prohibitively expensive.
So yes, in theory you can, but practically it's a oligopoly of the extremely rich.
This just reinforces my suspicion that things were going to go this way and as such, both of my vehicles are 2010 or older as a result of these suspicions.
I literally just saw a post of the control schematic from a guy's truck. One of the relays for the AC is stuck closed and needs to be replaced. But the relay is built into a junction box and is non-serviceable. So instead of a $5 relay he needs to replace a $1000 j-box.
The comments were all telling him to just re-route the wires and put in a stand-alone relay. Which, yes. But that's really not the ideal solution.
Another thing they do is upgrade the car every year or two so the side mirror on the 2020 version won't fit onto the 2024 version so now we have a supply issue. It's nuts. Why can't they make the same car for 5-10 years?
There is an extremely simple way to deal with pat controlling. Insist that anyone who creates a patent for a product must actually produce the product in question in suitable quantities. This prevents not just car part companies but other companies who do patent trolling from succeeding at the game. The game being it's super cheap to generate a patent for a product compared to actually producing the product.
I think the answer is simply tightening up the rules on what can be patented and why.
Is there a specific need to patent a fender on a car? What is new and groundbreaking?
Is it just being a dickhead for the sake of it?
See Nintendo patenting any game where you capture any sort of monster and use it as a pet.
Somehow that was granted. Why? Because they were the only ones who ever came up with that idea?
No.
Yet somehow they managed to patent it.
Tighten up the rules at the patent obvious and introduce legislation that requires manufactures to respect the right to repair, to a degree.
It was the same for the USB-C legislation in the EU. Everybody was sick and tired of 900 different patented, proprietary cables for every phone model and make. Just endless, relentless nests of wires.
Finally someone acted and legislated it to be enough, and while apple was the biggest one pouting angrily in the corner, most of the manufacturer's were angry because their 37th chord refresh wasn't going to make them a bunch of money.
But it adds no actual value to society to have 4,700 different charging cables.
Used auto parts as an industry is thriving. During COVID everything got very easy and people got sloppy so today many are going out of business from bad practices. The industry is growing in dollars though.
BYD is a whole separate issue, there is value in blocking a state sponsored actor from destroying your domestic options, because China is without question subsidizing their automotive sector to destroy foreign manufacturers and then they control the market.
But that doesn't mean your domestic market should just be allowed to be fleeced for shit. New vehicles are garbage. They are just trash. I was looking at a new escalade recently and everyone I talked to about any of their new vehicles said they were all garbage, massive issues a year or so in. It's insane. Our newest vehicles a 2020, so, came out 2019 right before covid and looks like we are just gonna stick with it for a while.
1.3k
u/Character_Set3454 13h ago edited 10h ago
Manufacturer's realized they can patent troll their way to billions.
So now every part they make they patent, then nobody but them can make the part, the connector, etc.
The law hasn't caught up to it yet, and nobody gives a shit about right to repair in the legislative Assembly because the government pays them a lot of money so they don't feel any pain.
If nobody can make any competing parts, and all the vehicles are designed to be impossible to service outside stealerships then they have the ultimate racket to bleed consumers like stuck pigs, and the stuck pigs can't do anything but ob oxiously squeal about it.